Keyboard layout preference survey

The point is this: in the new version of Real Commander there will be support for entering
Russian letters, regarding the keyboard layout there are options:

1. Make a choice of layout (which will increase the size by another 120 bytes, taking into account
the conversion table, the menu item in SetUp and its handler). A trifle
of course, but when creating rom files with modules, these hundred bytes may
just not be enough.
2. Use the most frequently used layout. When I sat
on real life I preferred YAVERTY, now YTSUKEN. Please note that with this
layout you will not only edit file names, but also
work in other modules, such as Disk Doctor or Text
Editor if one appears...

Express your opinion, only in NetMail and quickly, preferably by e-mail.

Bye!
void Real_Software (pa...@nm.ru, www.realsoft.hotbox.ru)

On Sun, 10 Aug 03 20:10:58 +0400, Pawel Kislyak wrote:

PK> 2. Use the most frequently used layout. When I sat
PK> in real life I preferred YAVERTY, now YTSUKEN. Please note that with this

And which is the most used? Owners of writing keyboards
choose yatsuken, owners of 58-key keyboards YAVERT, because
itsuken does not fit on 58 keys (and there are several different
options!). And then, there may not be Russian letters on the keyboard.

So making a single layout is a crazy idea. Do you feel sorry for 120 bytes on the disk? If it’s a pity, then do it, it can be used by everyone without problems.

12 Aug 03 10:32, Nikolaj Amosov -> Kirill Frolov:

KF>> (and there are several different options!). And then, on
KF>> the keyboard may not have Russian letters on it.
NA> I drew it on my pen and sealed it with tape so that it wouldn’t be erased.

I mutilated the keyboard + erased the operator’s inscriptions. I gave up on this.

KF>> So making a single layout is a crazy idea.
KF>> Do you feel sorry for 120 bytes _on_disk_? If it’s a pity, then make
KF>> yaverts, it can be used by everyone without problems.
NA> Not yaverts in any case - I still had to break my fingers when
NA> moving from one keyboard to another.

If you do a single one, then IMHO YAVERTS is the only way out. For most people
this is not the “other”, but the “first” layout. So the
minority will have to relearn.

With respect, Alexey.

PS When replying to netmail, we kindly ask you to cut the letters to 11Kb. Otherwise
the ending will be lost. :((

In any case, comparing the Russian alphabet with the Latin alphabet and
finding where which Russian letter is not a problem for you - Latin letters are
always printed on the keyboard. And if I don’t know yitsukeng, then I will look for the letters while holding Figurnov’s book in my left hand. At the same time, on the Spectrum
keyboard, the letters that fall on the right side of the standard "Yitzukeng" keyboard
end up anywhere, so the book won't help me. The location of the punctuation marks on the Spectrum "ytsukeng" also does not correspond in any way to a typical typewriter, and you also need to look for every comma (here,
as always, M$ invented its own Russian keyboard layout incompatible
with the standard one...)

NA> Not yaverts by any means - I didn’t have enough to break my fingers when moving
NA> from one keyboard to another.

So, you need to enter a custom layout :) .
I feel equally good on both yaverts and YTsUKEN,
but in the first case - on echo tag, of course.

With the best - Wlodek # wlblack(@)newmail.ru # http://wlodeks.narod.ru
[ZX] [500:95/462@ZXNet] [2:5016 Forever] [Golyanovo] [Old Russians]

NA>> break when moving from one keyboard to another.

AT> If you do a single one, then IMHO YAVERTY is the only way out. To the husband
AT> for the majority this is not the “other”, but the “first” layout.

I also had the “first” layout for several years, which did not prevent me from learning and relearning the YTSUKEN during my studies. But at first he was spitting ;)

AT> So
AT> the minority will have to relearn.

There are few real-life people left, and emulators are apparently more comfortable with YTSUKEH...

NA>> necessary.

KF> It’s still going to bed. Only the rarely used letters Sh, Shch, Ch, E, Yu and ъ fall into SS+letter. There is only one
KF> "standard". For ytsuken, I saw keyboards and "ytsuken" and
KF> "tsukeng" and the letters B, Yu, Zh, X everywhere in different places.

Do it like in DME

; ABVGDEYZHIYKLMHNOPRSTUFHTSCHSHSHSHYYYEYYAYA
XLAT ABWGDE ......................... ; YAVERTY layout
XLAT F~DULT .......................... ; YTSUKEH layout

Comment out any unnecessary ones. It will suit everyone - you can set any location of
buttons.

NA> I also had YAVERT’s “first” layout for several years, which did not stop
NA> me during
NA> from learning and relearning YTSUKEN. But at first I was spitting;
By the way, when I was sitting on the echotag ("Quorum" the brainchild of Kamil Karimov), on the keyboard
YTSUKEN, for a number of reasons I had to switch to YAVERT and back, so
I switched without major problems, after 10 minutes I adapted normally.

NA> There are few real people left, and emulators seem to be more comfortable with YTSUKEN...
I write the same on both layouts
it’s not difficult
but do your own survey for EXT+N (at the same time)=B capital in YTsUKEN, etc. in RC
didn't work due to memory shortage

- Alone Coder [ZX-Guide] [Inferno4] [AlCoNews] [ACE0.74l+] [PT3+66] [Chip1.3]
[STS5.63d13] [ANSI0.3G] [8col0.04] [ZXRARdem09ch] [ZXUNRAR0.49c7]

KF>>>> (and there are several different options!). And then, on
KF>>>> the keyboard may not have Russian letters on it.
NA>>> I drew on it with my own pen and sealed it with tape so that it would not
NA>>> be erased.
AT>> I mutilated the keyboard + erased the operator inscriptions. I fucking refused
AT>> from this.

I also first learned to type in “yaverty”. Then, mastering the offtopic topic, I studied "ytsyken". Now I use both layouts. In my deepest conviction, using the “Yitzken” layout on a 58-key keyboard is a perversion, you can break your fingers. Just like using “yaverts” on a writing keyboard is also a perversion - there are more keys, here “ytsyken” is convenient. So I
use both layouts, and I don’t even notice the difference. The fact that you are confused is a myth: the system here is the same as when speaking different foreign languages. A person who speaks French and English is able to speak correctly in each of these languages, without confusing grammatical forms and words. Our consciousness
is flexible enough to “switch” from one system to another.

Vega/ex-Style Group.

FIDO: 2:5030/1512 ZXNET: 500:812/19 E-mail: veg...@mail.ru

NA>> the operators are all in the head.

AT> Yes, and right away where are ABS, COS, etc.

You caught me ;) I don’t even remember where - after all, I haven’t programmed in
BASIC for 6 years...

NA> You caught me ;) I don’t even remember where - after all, I haven’t programmed in
NA> BASIC for 6 years...

There’s BASIC-128 for that.

NA>> which did not prevent me from getting used to it during my studies and
NA>> switching to YTSUKEN. But at first I was spitting ;)

VS> I also first learned to type in “yaverty”. Then,
VS> mastering the off-topic, I studied “ytsyken”. Now I use
VS> both layouts. In my deepest conviction,
VS> A person who speaks
VS> French and English is capable of speaking
VS> correctly in each of these languages, without confusing grammatical forms and
VS> words. Our consciousness is flexible enough to
VS> “switch” from one system to another.

In general, the issue with layouts in RC has already been resolved by the author.

NA>> programmed in
NA>> BASIC...

KF> For this there is BASIC-128.

As an option. If it were similar to Beta-Basic, then it would be
even a very cool option.

[REAL ZX]

TOOOORMOZZZZ he. There is Beta BASIC 3.0 for this. There you want with tokens, if you want
type by letter. IMHO rules. :))

ALL. Who has Beta BASIC 4.0 throw it at me. I heard that it exists, and it
works with disk. And also a description for it.

AT> TOOORMOZZZZ he.

Myth. It works slightly slower than standard BASIC.
To significantly speed up BASIC programs, there are compilers
like TOBOS.

AT> For this there is Beta BASIC 3.0.

And does it work with disk? How to write a program?

KF> And does it work with the disk? How to write a program?

Elementary. This was described back in the 1992 ZX-Review. You need to give the command to exit BBASIC, work with the disk, and then return back to BASIC. All this has already been entered into separate procedures and is on my fax server along with the beta
BASIC. Additionally, the Russian/Eng transition is immediately configured; the kit includes a font
256 characters 6*7, which gives 42 characters per line, 22 lines on the screen + 2 lines
of the system window (64 characters per line are possible). ~30 new commands + ~30 functions
(I couldn’t find the exact data right now), the ability to enter commands both by letters and
tokens, cool work with arrays, structural listing output, the ability
to write your own procedures and functions, etc. etc.

AT>>>>>> Yes, and right away where ABS, COS, etc.
NA>>>>> You caught me ;) I don’t even remember where - after all, I haven’t programmed in BASIC for 6 years...
KF>>>> For this there is BASIC-128.
AT>>> TOOORMOZZZZ he.
KF>> Myth. It works slightly slower than standard BASIC.
KF>> To significantly speed up BASIC programs, there are
KF>> compilers like TOBOS.

28 Aug 03 08:07, Kirill Frolov -> Aleksey Tarasow:

KF> Then what to talk about at all? On a normal keyboard it will be
KF> 10 times faster than on a Spectrum token.

Well, I don’t agree with this. My personal experience says otherwise. I even configured XAS
to work with tokens, and my listing speed has increased.

AT> No mail from you DOES NOT reach me. Kick the nodes along the route.

It’s better to tell me the address of the Internet gate in your region and disable the ban
on sending to the Internet - it’s still better, probably, to load one gate with yuyuks
than half the fidonet...

Response to a letter dated <31 Aug 03>, Kirill Frolov -> Aleksey Tarasow:

You asked about the possibility of ordering topics from a fax server from the Internet, here is the answer
of the moderator (I am only a co-moderator of one section):

=== Start 123.txt ===

AT> Better tell me the address of the Internet gate of your region and
AT> turn off the ban on sending to the Internet - it’s better, after all,
AT> probably to load one gate with yuyuks than half
AT> fidonet...
AT> ==================
AT> What do you say?

I think that Comrade. I didn't understand the situation. The Internet is simply flooded with spam. And the robot can send to the Internet. Only now he is trained not to respond to letters from there. And this was done for fundamental reasons - so that I wouldn’t show my address on the Internet and, accordingly, less spam would come in. When they ban spam there and really
eradicate spam, then we can talk about processing letters from there.

=== End 123.txt ===