New Speccy
ZXNet echo conference «real.speccy»
Once, Wed Aug 25 1999 09:34, Roman Milukov wrote to Dmitry Lomov about [New
Speccy]:
RM>>>>> HDD controller - too, really only one - Nemovsky.
RM> ...
DL>> there is software only for IS-DOS, this is fatal.
RM> Perhaps this temporarily. You can tinker with TR-DOS, you can write something under the
RM> cache, you can plug in an additional ROM.
You can. and Zonov and Larchenko _already_ did it.
RM> It’s more fatal for me to think about SMUK
RM>. ;). I'm just saying that
RM> I never had the desire to add Zonovsky decryption.
RM> I did the ATM-ish one, Profakovskaya is still hanging on, but Skorpovskaya...
but tell me, what is the fundamental difference? they are all idiotic.
it’s just that at that stage, probably, they didn’t have enough brains, they didn’t look at how
the existing 7FFD is used everywhere.
RM>>> That’s what we’re talking about. If there is no new promising board, then
RM>>> there will be two options left: Sprinter and PC.
DL>> Pe-tse, of course ;)
RM> Just wait. Dmity Pavluhin will breed his New Speccy and distribute
RM> free templates, documentation.
oh, yes, yes. for one person this is work for years. I can’t say anything about the circuitry and software talents of DP, I don’t know... all this is a lot of work. very big. practice shows that spektrumists have short
patience ;)
RM> You'll have to sell the PC in order to buy a Z380
RM>. ;)
Hehe ;)
All the best.
Dmitry.
... LD..X-TRADE... [ZX]
On the day DP> In a message of 25 Aug 99 Roman Milukov wrote to Dmitry Lomov: DP> By the way, a question for everyone: where can you buy processors of the Here is the address and some extract on prices for processors (and not only Z380): JSC "GAMMA" St. Petersburg, Shatelena St., 3. Type Manufacturer Price Z8018006PSC (Z180) 6MHz Zilog 5.44 Wow! The Protoss are attacking my Zerlings! It's time to get going. Ivan. - Divorce the scheme, big and small.. [ Sprinter-II ][Forth-CPU] [ZX] ... E-mail: ivan...@mail.ru * Welcome to www.atlant.ru/peters *
DP> z380 series? and what is the price. Addresses in Moscow and Novosibirsk, or
DP> those companies that send out parts by mail are suitable.
Firm "Gamma" in St. Petersburg. It costs a little less than $19 for a frequency of 18MHz. They seem to sell by mail, I don’t know what about single copies.
t/f:(812)552-62-75, t:(812)247-54-73
Z8018006VSC (Z180) 6MHz Zilog 5.44
Z8018010VEC (Z180) 10MHz Zilog 8.04
Z8018110FEC (Z181) 10MHz Zilog 14.04
Z8028012VSC (Z280) 12MHz Zilog 40.32
Z8038018FSC (Z380) 18MHz Zilog 18.94
Z84C0010PEC (Z80) 10MHz Zilog 2.89
Z84C0010VEC (Z80) 10MHz Zilog 2.89
Z84C0020VEC (Z80) 20MHz Zilog 7.16
Z84C1516FSC Zilog 11.32
^^^^^^^^^^^
But this last one is in the Sprinter
One day, Saturday September 04, 1999 09:22, Ivan Mak wrote to Dmitry Pavluhin:
...
skip
IM> Type Manufacturer Price
IM> Z8018006PSC (Z180) 6MHz Zilog 5.44
IM> Z8018006VSC (Z180) 6MHz Zilog 5.44
IM> Z8018010VEC (Z180) 10MHz Zilog 8.04
IM> Z8018110FEC (Z181) 10MHz Zilog 14.04
IM> Z8028012VSC (Z280) 12MHz Zilog 40.32
IM> Z8038018FSC (Z380) 18MHz Zilog 18.94
IM> Z84C0010PEC (Z80) 10MHz Zilog 2.89
IM> Z84C0010VEC (Z80) 10MHz Zilog 2.89
IM> Z84C0020VEC (Z80) 20MHz Zilog 7.16
IM> Z84C1516FSC Zilog 11.32
IM> ^^^^^^^^^^^
IM> But this last one is in Sprinter
I don’t understand something. The z80 at 10 MHz is cheaper than the same z80 at
6 MHz. and the z280 at 12MHz costs more than twice as much as the z380 at 18MHz. what
explains this discrepancy?
Best wishes, Artur. [ZX]
REAL.SPECCY
From : Evgeny Milun 2:5057/18.73 Mon 02 Aug 99 08:02
To : Artur Ishmurzin Tue 03 Aug 99 09:22
DP>>>> 8, 16 or 32 bit. Let's decide on this.
EM>>> The Z80 processor is 8-bit... What else is needed?
AI>> I don’t understand what psychological problems there are with using the Z-ki
EM> First of all, it’s a psychological problem - “This is no longer
EM> Spectrum.”
of course. The ZX Spectrum is a 1982 model with 48K RAM. and no
more. You can also say about the other models - “they have 128K RAM, music, etc. - this is no longer a Spectrum.” Each model brings
something new to computer architecture. so why not finally introduce a new processor?
AI>> look - almost all platforms started the same way, with a small 8
AI>> bit CPU. and what today?
EM> So what? Generations of processors change every 2-4 years. A computer with
EM> of the previous generation is practically junk...
What are you talking about?
AI>> does not exist. Spectrum will remain Spectrum, even if its
AI>> CPU is changed to 180. the platform is characterized not by the hardware, or rather in
AI>> at least by the hardware, but by the people who work on it.
EM> FirstI hear once that the computer architecture (and hardware
EM> compatibility of programs) would be determined not by a specific hardware embodiment,
EM> but by “people”...
You’re already fantasizing. Note that I said “platform” (!), in no case
architecture. agree that these are somewhat different concepts.
AI>> people will remain the same, but hardware will move forward a little.
EM> 16-bit applications practically do not run under 32-bit
EM> Winodws NT. Does this mean anything?
this is off-topic! We will not go into specific examples, but there are two
policies that determine the behavior of PC manufacturers in the market. The first is
to adhere to strict software and hardware compatibility of new models with
earlier ones. second - compatibility is not put in first place, a more important role is played by the introduction of new ideas and developments. There is no need to say that the first type of politics currently dominates in the world. but despite its obvious advantages and benefits, in any case it leads to a dead end. It won't be possible to drag out the heavy load of compatibility for long. and the situation on the offtopic will soon become
critical, in the next decade.
AI>> after all, the PC did not become a non-PC when it was replaced
AI>> 86th by 186th, 286th, etc. it's just _evolution_!
EM> Actually, the 286th was precisely _revolutionary_jump. And precisely in comparison with the 86th and 88th... But all the others - 386, 486, Pentiums -
EM> are evolutionary.
you forgot one step in this series, which nullifies your
statement about the revolutionary nature of the appearance of 2. There was also an i80186 process, which was a transitional model from the 86th to the 286th. and it’s not his fault that he lasted very little. The evolution of the i80xxx made a strong leap forward at that time. BUT it was EVOLUTION!
Greetings, Artur!
On the day [skip prices for processors]
AI> I don’t understand something. The z80 at 10 MHz is cheaper than the same z80
AI> which is at 6 MHz.
cheaper than the Z180 at 6 MHz.
AI> and the z280 at 12 MHz costs more than twice as much
AI> z380 at 18 MHz. what explains this discrepancy?
And for the Z280 and Z380 there is such a difference because the Z280 has so many features that
it didn’t fit into any corner and Zilog abandoned this line, starting the Z380
again from the Z80 (precisely from the Z80, not the Z180, because the Z380 is more compatible with Z80
by code than Z380)
AI> this is offtopic! We will not go into specific examples, but there are
AI> two
AI> policies that determine the behavior of PC manufacturers in the market.
AI> the first is
AI> to adhere to strict software and hardware compatibility of new
AI> models with
AI> earlier ones. second - compatibility is not put in first place,
AI> a more important
AI> role is played by the introduction of new ideas and developments. There is no need to say that in
AI> the first type of politics currently dominates in the world. but despite
AI> its
AI> obvious advantages and winnings, in any case it leads to a dead end. long
AI> dragging on
AI> the heavy burden of compatibility will not work. and the situation on the offtopic will soon
AI> become
AI> critical, in the next decade.
For the new Spectrum on a new processor it is almost impossible to achieve
100% compatibility with old software :(. However, something must be sacrificed. Given the mass distribution of the new computer, the problem of compatibility is not particularly acute for the Spectrum: getting your favorite old games to work
(I think there are few of them) It is quite possible. Sacrificing part of the demo programs will pay off handsomely, because you will be able to write better demos for the new computer :).
And further progress is not particularly threatening - until Zilog releases a more powerful chip than the Z380.;). Although, if you don’t connect some 3-D Voodoo 2, then the Z380 is more than enough for almost 8 out of 10 people.
Sincerely, Dmitry.
AI> you forgot one step in this series, which nullifies your
AI> statement about the revolutionary nature of the appearance of 2. There was also a process
AI> i80186, which was a transitional model from the 86th to the 286th. and it’s not his
AI> fault that he lasted very little.
By the way, you’re confusing something... The 186th is specialized, not
universal. And it is still used today...
Good luck! Evgeny. ■ The night is shorter than the day... The day will kill me... The world of illusions burns down in it. (C) Aria.
IM> And regarding the Z280 and Z380, the difference is such because the Z280 has so much
IM> of everything that it didn’t fit into any gates and the Zilog company abandoned this
IM> line, starting the Z380 again from the Z80 (namely from the Z80, and not the Z180, because
IM> The Z380 is more code compatible with the Z80 than the Z380)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ ???? Or is it just me going crazy again? :)
Wow! The Protoss are attacking my Zerlings! It's time to get going. Ivan... data-saferedirecturl="https://www.google.com/url?hl=ru&q=http://www.atlant.ru/peters&source=gmail&ust=1785433332406000&usg=AOvVaw21ejo58k0jsgMZ9bEG2O6-">www.atlant.ru/peters *
AI>> will soon become critical, in the next decade.
DP> For a new Spectrum on a new processor it is almost impossible
DP> to achieve 100% compatibility with old software :(. However, something needs to be
why?
DP> subject to mass distribution of the new computer
DP> the compatibility problem is not particularly acute for the Spectrum:
DP> it is quite possible to get your favorite old games to work (I think there are not many of them).
DP> The sacrifice of part of the demo programs will pay off handsomely, because under
DP> the new computer will be able to write better demos :).
in principle, it’s not about the demos and the demoscene. there will be people, there will be demos.
DP> And further progress is not particularly threatening - until Zilog releases a chip
DP> more powerful than the Z380;). Although, if you don’t connect some kind of 3-D Voodoo 2,
DP> then the Z380 will be more than enough for almost 8 out of 10 people.
if all the software for the new spec will be written in high-level languages, then
a general upgrade is inevitable. if assembly is retained as the leading
programming language, the power of the 380 will last for a very long time.
EM> Besides, what’s good about the Spectrum is that it doesn’t have
EM> the process of turning the next model into scrap every 2-4 years.
It’s good for you, for me, RM (both) is probably not bad either. and those _millions_
(I’m not afraid of such a figure) who were dumped from the ZX platform? not aesthetes, and not
connoisseurs of beauty :). Time will pass and the last remnants of the “aesthetes” who
now still hang out in the 3rd Spectrum will leave the spec. and do you know why? because
you can talk for a long time and beautifully about the eliteness of the ZX platform, admire a lot (or
pretend to admire) the art of Spec's coders, BUT (!) when
the last coder rests his forehead against the wall of performance limitations and says
"tired of it!" "I'm tired of it!" then the same thing will come
"EVERYTHING, THE END..."
and there will never be disposal of models with a half-life of 2-4 years. spec
is not the platform on which such a thing will take place. and look at the history.
The last Spectrum model was released, if I'm not mistaken, in 1987. Moreover
its appearance did not entail the disposal of the ZX 48K.
EM> Of course, it is very good to develop it further, but: (a) we must not forget
EM> about the fate that befell those “almost all platforms” - the raceupgrades; (b)
again - the upgrade race implies the presence of a market, which at the moment
is absent, or almost absent, on the ZX.
EM> considerations of maximum compatibility. The proposed change
EM> architecture will most likely cause a surge in incompatibility. Although...
that's it, "although..". just think about what the new Spectrum gives us, for example, with
60% compatibility (demos - push, perversions - push), but with much greater
performance and more or less modern architecture...
AI> if all software for the new spec is written in high
AI> level languages, then
AI> a wholesale upgrade is inevitable. in the case of preserving the assembler as the
AI> leading
AI> programming language, the power of the 380 will be enough for a very long time.
First you need to write these Java programs. And besides, which of the Spectrumists
will want to repeat the path of the RS? :). And where will it upgrade next? It seems that there is no one more powerful than the Z380 in the class compatible with the Z80. Or is there?
Sincerely, Dmitry.
16 Sep 99 18:53, Dmitry Pavlukhin wrote to Artur Ishmurzin:
DP> First you need to write these Java programs. And besides, which of the Spectrumists
DP> will want to follow the path of the RS? :). And where will it be upgraded next?
DP> It seems that there are no more powerful ones than the Z380 in the class compatible with the Z80. Or is there?
Why is there a __compatible__ processor in the subject?
On a powerful processor you can __emulate__ Z80.
Or install 2 processors. New and ancient.
Kirill Frolov. [ZX]
AI>> why?
DP> I'm talking about the Z380. It is difficult to achieve work, for example, multicolors.
DP> Due to the different execution times of commands by clock cycle and the higher
DP> clock frequency. You can make two modes - turbo and non-turbo :). But in the case of multicolors, this will not help. Hence - not 100%
DP> compatibility with the original.
multicolor, multicolor... it seems like the days of the craze for this are over.
and the very principle of multicolor implies incomplete compatibility between
_existing_ models. Have you seen how the Pentagon multicolor is going on in Leningrad? and it’s better not to look :)
text: lately no soap has been coming to you. letters are returned with the note
"the addressee is not on the point list." You should have sorted this out faster.
On Monday, September 20, 1999 at 00:48,
Kirill Frolov trampled the loaves to Dmitry Pavlukhin:
KF> Why is there a __compatible__ processor in the subject?
KF> On a powerful processor you can __emulate__ Z80.
so, with all our hearts we throw ourselves at Transmeta processors :)))
thank you. The idea is interesting, because it is unlikely that the z380 is compatible with the 80 using undocumented
commands, since there is often no such compatibility between different z80s (see
one of the ZX Formats, where they broke down with the command OUT (n), 0 like or
something like that)...
WBR, Sergei Dubarev
Are you sure that the Z380 will have enough power?
KF> Or install 2 processors. New and ancient.
Not expensive?
Although the first one was invented well, because the architectures of the Z80 and Z380 are similar, but all
this perversion will have to be implemented in hardware, which will result in the price :(
Dopokedova and all the best!
nato...@mail.ru [ KSTU-98_already_VT!!!] [ZX-FOREVER!!!]
DP>> First you need to write these Java programs. And besides, which of the Spectrumists
DP>> wants to follow the path of the RS? :). And where will it upgrade next?
DP>> It seems that there are no more powerful ones than the Z380 in the class compatible with the Z80. Or is there ?
AI> multicolor, multicolor... it seems like the days of craze
AI> for this are over.
AI> and the principle of multicolor itself implies incomplete compatibility
AI> between
AI> _existing_ models. Have you seen the Pentagon's multicolor
AI> on
AI> Leningrad? and it’s better not to look :)
Yes, I’ve already seen enough of Scorp (when I had him) :).
AI> PS: lately no soap has been coming to you. letters are returned with
AI> the mark
AI> "the addressee is not in the point list." you would have sorted this out faster.
It’s not up to me :(. I do what I can - I shake my boss. The most
interesting thing is that I receive some letters in the form of a rejected letter
with a note that I’m not on the pointlist :).
Sincerely, Dmitry.
From : Kirill Frolov Monday September 20, 1999
To : Dmitry Pavluhin
SD> so, with all our hearts we throw in all the money for Transmeta processors :)))
SD> PS. the idea is interesting, because it is unlikely that the z380 is compatible with the 80th by
SD> undocumented
SD> commands, since there is often no such compatibility
SD> between different z80s (see
SD> some of the ZX Formats, where they broke off with the OUT (n) command, 0 like
SD> or
SD> something like that)...
There is no point in using such perversions. The same Z80006 does not digest
this command (it is in KAU), . The Z380 supports commands with halves of index registers, which in the old literature were described as undocumented, and theoretically 95% of the software on it should work with a bang, - in practice - we need to check it :). It is possible to install the Z80 on a new computer as a second processor for 99% compatibility with the Spectrum, but I don’t think it’s advisable, because... will require the installation of a bunch of chips that implement RAM regeneration and other little things that the Z380 can already do.
Sincerely, Dmitry.
PP> Not expensive?
The ancient one costs only $1...
PP> Although the first one was invented well, because the architectures of the Z80 and Z380 are similar,
PP> but all this perversion will have to be implemented in hardware, which will result in the price
PP> :(
Z380 is a big deal. I prefer i80486 like...
Kirill Frolov [ZX]
KF> Are you sure that in this case there is a need for emulation?
Did I suggest this?
KF> Z380 Masdai. I like i80486 better...
KF> [ZX]
Somehow they don’t match... :(
KF>> ?
PP> Did I suggest this?
Ya. But I didn’t write that it is necessary to emulate on the z380. I meant intel.
Kirill Frolov. [ZX]
Do you want to know more about PENZIUM?
Andreas Kaiser
mailto: reani...@nikocity.de
Welcome to: http://azx.germany.ms