kempston-mouse
ZXNet echo conference «real.speccy»
Gentlemen of the real world, are you interested in the universal kempston-mouse adapter,
which can work with com, ps/2, amiga-style mice?
Bye...
On Monday, July 30, 2001, Vadik Akimoff and All discussed "kempston-mouse".
Continuing the conversation...
VA> Gentlemen of the real world, are you interested in the universal adapter kempston-mouse,
VA> which can work with com, ps/2, amiga-style mice?
You bet!!! Scheme for the studio!
That’s all I have. Bye, Vadik!
Sincerely, Roman (aka
TimeX).
30 Jul 01, 10:37 "Vadik Akimoff" wrote to "All":
VA> Gentlemen realists, are you interested in the universal adapter
VA> kempston-mouse, which can work with com, ps/2, amiga-style
VA> mice?
Only without PICs.
With respectfully, Volyk Alexey
from Phantom Family.
-+- WinAmp plays and plays with itself...
AV> Only without PICs.
It won’t work without single-crystal chips at all (well, perhaps on a bunch of logic
or on some fpgas, but here the specialist is Ivan Mak, and not me ;).
I have an AT89C2051 on mine, which allows me to assemble it if necessary on
1816BE(31|51)+555IR22+573RF2...
PS: and in general, the peaks don’t have enough legs for this :-))
Bye...
RT> Of course!!! The circuit to the studio!
I can throw in the old version, which only works with amiga-style and
com mice, without interpolation (com mice twitch exactly like on PC ;).
Now I'm working on a new version, with ps/2 and interpolation, I'm sitting soldering the circuit,
then I'll do the firmware write.....
Bye...
VA> which can work with com, ps/2, amiga-style mice?
Interested. Without a doubt.
Have a nice conversation, Vadik...
... ┌─[ZX]─>─[SPbZXNet]─┬─[FIDONet]─>─[INet]─>─[ZXNet]─>─[ZX]─┐
VA> It won’t work without single-crystal chips (well, perhaps on a bunch of logic
VA> or on some fpgas, but here the specialist is Ivan Mak, and not me
VA> ;).
VA> I have an AT89C2051, which allows me to build on
VA> if necessary. 1816VE(31|51)+555IR22+573RF2...
But this is GO-A-A-Y!:)
VA> PS: and in general, the peaks don’t have enough legs for this :-))
So there were diagrams. And moreover, workers.
Somehow Monday July 30, 2001 at 10:37:50 soap
Vadik Akimoff to All on the topic kempston-mouse
VA> Gentlemen realists, you are interested in the universal adapter
VA> kempston-mouse,
VA> which can work with com, ps/2, amiga-style mice?
of course interested, but better without PIC (it will do on Altera)
SAYO:NARA, DO:ZE O-GENKI-DE, Evgeny Poddubny.
@ ZXNet 500:4232/1.777 | Fidonet 2:5045/78.777
VA>> I have AT89C2051, which allows, if necessary, to assemble on
VA>> 1816BE(31|51)+555IR22+573RF2...
VK> a little off topic;) Does anyone have firmware for the pro-Finnish
VK> xt keyboard controller, with support for at keyboard? (there is 1816BE35)
Do you think there will be a masochist who will write programs for enta
crooked-ass ve35? :-)
And by the way, what does spades have to do with it? :)
Bye...
VA> It won’t work without single chips at all (well, perhaps on a bunch of logic
VA> or on some fpgas, but here the specialist is Ivan Mak, and not me ;).
VA> I have an AT89C2051 on mine, which allows, if necessary, to assemble on
VA> 1816BE(31|51)+555IR22+573RF2...
a little off topic;) Does anyone have firmware for the pro-Finnish xt
clave controller, with support for at keyboard? (there it costs 1816BE35)
p.s. looking for ZX-NEXT circuits (any), as well as Pro version 4.x in good condition
(so that second copies can be made), reward guaranteed;-).
See you soon, aLL. jtn{a}mail.ru
├┬
─┘│n/ЧD sp...@fbi.com
VA>> Gentlemen of the real world, are you interested in a universal adapter
VA>> kempston-mouse,
VA>> that can work with com, ps/2, amiga-style mice?
EP> of course I'm interested, but it's better without a PIC (it'll do on Altera)
So oh my... The disgusting company microchip has filled the whole
world with its undercontrollers, and now in the minds of some people all microcontrollers are associated with these
unfortunate peaks....
And secondly, you still need to look for a masochist who will com and ps/2
mouse on fpga (and why, by the way, on alter, and not on xilinx, for example? ;)
to do, with _autodetect_ and _interpolation_, and the ps/2 mouse first needs to
be told to send packets itself (take it out of the polling mode, in which
it is by default) and set it to max. possible fps. (This is 200fps, but
really less). At the same time, get broken software for designing circuits on these fpgas, or buy an unbroken one, and also a computer on which to run this software.
As an easy exercise, solder a very multi-legged fpga to the board.
And all this instead of taking a 20-legged small circuit and writing a little on
her
asma....
Bye...
VA>> Gentlemen of the real world, are you interested in a universal adapter
VA>> kempston-mouse,
VA>> that can work with com, ps/2, amiga-style mice?
[skip]
VA> And all this instead of taking a 20-legged small circuit and a little
VA> peeing on its asma....
It’s not enough to pee - then you have to flash it somewhere! Write a program for the echo tag and a diagram for it
- everyone will immediately rush to buy spades. And I would also buy a prog for inexpensively with
a circuit in addition.
And so I saw the circuit - there the percentage is from the PIK. This is not rulez at all! And
there is no other way.
Khayushki, Vadik !
Somehow Monday July 30, 2001 at 09:37:50 there was a dialogue between Vadik Akimoff and
All on the topic of Kempston-mouse and I decided to intervene:
VA> Gentlemen realists, you are interested in a universal adapter kempston-mouse,
VA> which can work with com, ps/2, amiga-style mice?
To be honest, I’m more interested in a normal PC keyboard adapter :)
Bye...
See you again, Speccyfan.
VA> So oh my... The nasty company microchip
is not nasty ;) it is good.
VA> has filled the whole world with its undercontrollers, and now in the minds of
VA> all microcontrollers are associated with these
VA> unfortunate peaks....
in the minds of limited people ;)
VA> And secondly, this is also we need to look for a masochist who will be com
VA> and ps/2 mouse on fpga
well, why not. it can be done, and it's not that difficult. I, for example, would do
due to the fact that perversion is interesting, but on a microcontroller it is trivial.
VA> (and why, by the way, on Alter, and not on xilinx, for example?
for xilinx fpga software is worth a lot of money.
VA> At the same time, get broken software for designing circuits on
VA> these fpga'shkah,
there is free software ;)
VA> Do you think there will be a masochist who will write programs for enta
VA> crooked-ass ve35? :-)
yes, they say that in Perm (we) some guy had such a thing, but where can I find it now... By the way, I don’t know what you meant about the crookedness;),
but I have a detailed document with commands and examples. True, I won’t write this myself anyway;). It’s just that people want to buy controllers from Zonov (500 rubles after all), changing the firmware and keyboard would cost much less.
VA> And by the way, what does the spades have to do with it? :)
well, I don’t know, peaks and single crystals are different things?
See you soon, Vadik. jtn{a}mail.ru
├┬
─┘│n/ЧD sp...@fbi.com
VK> Well, I don’t know, peaks and single-crystals are different things, aren’t they?
A peak is a single-crystal, but a single-crystal is not a peak.
AV> It’s not enough to pee - then you have to flash it somewhere! Write a program for the echotag and
AV> a diagram for it - everyone will immediately rush to buy spades. And I also bought a program
Do you already know how to program an alter on echotag?
AV> It’s not enough to pee - then you have to flash it somewhere!
Don’t you need an alter? The peaks on ten wires are programmed, and what is there
in the alter is scary to think about, besides, you have to buy programs for a lot of $.
An unfinished programmer (program) for AVR was found on the Internet instantly and
brought into working condition in 2 days. The assembler was also free. It is unlikely
you can find a free compiler for an alter.
AV> Write a program for the echotag and a diagram for it - everyone will immediately rush to buy
AV> peaks. And I would also buy a prog for inexpensively with a circuit in addition.
Why the hell is it needed on the echotag, if you still can’t seriously work on it
?
AV> And so I saw the circuit - there the percentage is coming from the PIC. This is not
AV> rulez at all! And it doesn’t work any other way.
Do you know what protocol mice on a serial interface use?
And mice are very different. You will need Altera, if not of gigantic
size,
then not of small ones. And there is no need for fairy tales about wait. _There_ it works, but somewhere else
it can work like that. Either install 3 registers, or quickly
find a peak.
If, for example, the peak works at 28 Mhz, and the spec works at 3.5 (whatever will be in the
turbo
- it doesn’t matter) it turns out 16 peak cycles to process the request. You can probably
get it done,
provided that requests don’t come in too often(The mouse, too,
process need to).
AHDL for PLM is no more complicated than the same ASMA for a 20-leg small-circuit.
In any case, Sprinter's Kempston-Mouse from the com port takes up only 80
lines, including headers and missing lines (for readability).
P.S. The minimum software for Altera is distributed free of charge on the Internet.
And the programmer for modern PLMs is assembled on one m/s
(555AP5/74LS244), connected to the printer port.
The Protoss escaped. The zerg dug in. It's time for me to call it a day. Ivan.
- Divorce the scheme, big and small... [Sprinter] Sprinter-II [Forth-CPU]
... ivan...@mail.ru * http://st-rektal.chat.ru * http://www.atlant.ru/peters
In a message of 03 Aug 01 Ivan Mak wrote to me:
IM> Well, there is such a “masochist” :) For com there is firmware, on AHDL.
IM> For Altera, respectively.
IM> AHDL for PLM is no more complicated than the same ASMA for a 20-leg small circuit.
IM> In any case, Sprinter's Kempston-Mouse from the com port takes up
IM> only 80 lines, including headers and missing lines (which is for
IM> readability).
And is it for a 3-byte or 5-byte format? Does it interpolate samples
(the mouse VERY rarely sends packets)? Is there an add-on for a regular amiga-style mouse? And for the most steering PS/2 mice (steering ones - because there are
optical
mice) is there an add-on? Again, with PS/2 mice not everything is as trivial as with com.
After this, it’s enough to just auto-detect the connected mouse
and don’t forget about interpolation. Well, how many lines did you get? ;-)
And most importantly, what price did you need for the alter?
IM> P.S. The minimum software for Altera is distributed free of charge on the Internet.
IM> And the programmer for modern PLMs is assembled on one m/s
IM> (555AP5/74LS244), attached to the printer port.
For spec there is no (afaik!) software for compiling programs for single-chip,
however, in principle it is not difficult to write. And for compiling programs for fpga?
Bye...
DL> well, why not. it can be done, and it's not that difficult. I would, for example,
DL> do it because perversion is interesting, but on a microcontroller
DL> it is trivial.
Good luck. Don't forget about interpolation and auto-detection. :)
Then you will look at the price of the required fpga.
VK> Yes, they say that in Perm (we) some guy had such a thing, but
VK> where can I find it now... By the way, I don’t know what you meant about
VK> crookedness;), but I have a detailed document with commands and examples.
If you compare these BE35, BE48, and others from the mcs48 family with at least the same BE51
-
just heaven and earth....
VK> True, I won’t write it myself anyway;). It’s just that people want to buy
VK> controllers from Zonov (500 rubles after all), changing the firmware and keyboard
VK> would cost much less.
VA> So oh my... The nasty company microchip has filled the whole
VA> world with its
VA> undercontrollers, and now in the minds of some people all
VA> microcontrollers are associated with these
VA> unfortunate peaks....
Y ;)). It’s just that there is already an active COM mouse controller at its peak, but where to
flash it???
VA>>> Gentlemen of the real world, are you interested in a universal adapter
VA>>> kempston-mouse,
VA>>> which can work with com, ps/2, amiga-style mice?
In a message of 03 Aug 01 Evgeny Poddubny wrote to me:
EP> ы ;)). It’s just that there is already an active COM mouse controller at its peak, but where
EP> should I flash it???
On PC :) In general, COM mice are the last century :)
PS/2 is better. :) Frame Rate is larger, it doesn’t twitch so terribly; does not require tricky
voltages (only +5V).
There are very nice (though expensive) optical mice that do not have a wheel and
work on any surface with a noticeable texture...
PS: by the way, someone, give me the circuit diagram of this controller (on PIC)... plz...
Bye...
On the Amiga
VA> PS: by the way, someone, give me the circuit diagram of this controller (on the PIC)...
Since the same type of mouse is used on the Amiga and on the Spec, then for
Campston Mouse owners the adapter developed by Denis Sotchenko aka
RDC for the Amiga is suitable. Those interested can take a look at Aminette
http://wuarchive.wustl.edu/aminet/dirs/hard_hack.html
ps2m.lha or the foreign version of mouseps2.lha
and if for others the rest remains, then connect the Kempston mouse circuit with
any of the ones provided above. I put together a pilot version for mgtf and it works. Kempston_mouse controller on BB55 bus KAY-Scorpion
Mr-Linker: A1200T Blizzard 1230-50+FPU/32fast/6.4GB/33.600bps/15" Samtron 55E
VA> PS: by the way, someone, give me a schematic diagram of this controller (on a PIC)...
In view of the fact that the same type of mouse is used on the Amiga and on the Speck, the adapter developed by Denis Sotchenko aka
RDC for the Amiga is suitable for
Campston_Mouse owners. Those interested can take a look at Aminette
http://wuarchive.wustl.edu/aminet/dirs/hard_hack.html
ps2m.lha or the foreign version of mouseps2.lha
and if for others the rest remains, then connect the Kempston mouse circuit with
any of the ones provided above. I put together a pilot version for mgtf and it works. Kempston_mouse controller on BB55 bus KAY-Scorpion
Mr-Linker: A1200T Blizzard 1230-50+FPU/32fast/6.4GB/33.600bps/15" Samtron 55E
BS> Due to the fact that the same type of mouse is used on the Amiga and on the Speck
BS> the adapter developed by Denis is suitable for Campston_Mouse owners
BS> Sotchenko aka RDC for the Amiga. Those interested can take a look at Aminette
BS> http://wuarchive.wustl.edu/aminet/dirs/hard_hack.html
BS> ps2m.lha or the foreign version mouseps2.lha
BS> and if for the rest, it remains to connect the kempston
BS> mouse circuit with any of the ones provided above. I assembled the pilot version for mgtf
BS> and it works. Kempston_mouse controller on BB55 bus KAY-Scorpion
You see, you propose:
1) make Sotchenovsky on 1 chip.
2) connect it to the little town on the counters and BB55.
3) PS/2, amiga-style mouse.
I suggest:
1) little town on 5 chips (<=20 legs, three of which are installed sandwich)
2) option on domestic components (+ 40-legged, + 24-legged).
3) PS/2, amiga-style, com-mice.
The option on counters, in addition, reduces the resolution of the mouse by 4 times and under
interference (when the pointer shakes from the native Amiga mouse, I saw,probably), these
counters will start counting... And everything will go away :-)
In a word, if someone already has Kempston-mouse on the counters and there is no
desire for correctness :), then the option with rdc works.
If there is a desire for correctness, you need to roll all the mice, or the adapter
is made
from scratch, then I am beyond competition :)
PS: Besides, I too Amizhnik, I don’t interfere with the competence of the rdc, well, let him not interfere either.
Even without knowing it. :-)
Bye...
IM> AHDL for PLM is no more complicated than the same ASMA for a 20-leg small-circuit.
You forget that to work with PLM you also need knowledge of digital circuitry,
and for working with single-chips this is not always necessary.
VA>>> has filled the whole world with its undercontrollers, and now in the minds of
VA>>> of some people all microcontrollers are associated with these
VA>>> unfortunate peaks....
DL>> in the minds of limited people ;)
KF> Do you know what protocol the mice on the serial interface
KF> use? And mice are very different. You will need Altera, if
KF> not of gigantic size, then not small. And there is no need for fairy tales about wait.
KF> _There_ it works, but somewhere else it can work like that. Or
KF> put 3 registers, or find a peak quickly. If, for example, the peak
KF> works at 28 Mhz, and the spec works at 3.5 (whatever will be clocked in the turbo --
KF> doesn’t matter), you get 16 peak cycles to process the request.
PIC divides the frequency by 4, and executes commands at the resulting speed.
It won’t work right away, you need a piece of hardware (registers/RAM) put.
Once, Fri Aug 03 2001 09:38, Vadik Akimoff wrote to Ivan Mak:
VA> Is there an amiga-style mouse add-on? And for the most steering PS/2 mice
VA> (steering ones - because there are optical ones;) is there an add-on? Again, with
VA> PS/2 mice not everything is as trivial as with com. After that, all you need to do is
VA> to do just auto-detection of the connected mouse, and don’t forget about
VA> interpolation.
Why did you get this interpolation? It is enough either to have a very high polling frequency, or to poll synchronously.
VA> Well, how many lines did you get? ;-) And most importantly, what price
VA> altera did you need?
decl ;)
though, much more expensive than the microcontroller.
In a message of 03 Aug 01 Mihail Zharov wrote to Vadik Akimoff (2:5022/115.37):
MZ> Moreover, I am ready to buy the final version of this
MZ> controller if there is a board for the zs slot. ;-)
Well, it’s unlikely... :(
When I finish it, I’ll post it to everyone (including here) for non-commercial
distribution/use.
Bye...
VA>>> Gentlemen of the real world, are you interested in a universal adapter
VA>>> kempston-mouse,
VA>>> that can work with com, ps/2, amiga-style mice?
EP>> of course I’m interested, but it’s better without PIC (it will do on Altera)
AV>> and the diagram for it - everyone will immediately rush to buy spades. And I also bought a prog
AV>> bought
KF> Do you already know how to program an alter on the echo tag?
What the hell are you stirring up? I didn't say that. I wrote about the fact that it is BETTER WITHOUT
PIC CONTROLLERS. Since just on the echo tag there is only a UFPZU programmer and
if the mouse controller is with EXTERNAL ROM, that is, on some 80c31 thread, then it
will be cooler for it.
Greetings, Vadik!
[skip about Altera for the mouse] VA> Is it for a 3-byte or 5-byte format? For a 3-byte VA> And it interpolates samples (the com-mouse VERY rarely sends packets)? No. VA> Is there an add-on for a regular amiga-style mouse? No. VA> And for the most steering PS/2 mice (steering ones - because there are No. VA> Again, with PS/2 mice not everything is as trivial as with com. After this 0 lines came out :) I don’t have that. VA> And most importantly, what price did you need for the alter? And for what we have, it cost $3.5 (if you do it separately) With all But inside the Sprinter PLM, at the unit cost of cells, it turned out to be $0.9
VA> optical ;) is there an add-on?
VA> it is enough to just auto-detect the connected mouse, and not
VA> forget about interpolation. Well, how many lines did you get? ;-)
the bells and whistles offered (+AT-keyboard), I suppose it will cost 10 bucks.
And it’s already clear that this option is not needed...
(90 cells at a cost of ~1 cent per cell)
In a message of 04 Aug 01 Alexey Volyk wrote to Kirill Frolov:
AV> Why are you stirring up trouble? I didn't say that. I wrote about the fact that it is BETTER WITHOUT
AV> PIC CONTROLLERS. Since the echo tag only has a
AV> UFPZU programmer and if the mouse controller is with EXTERNAL ROM, that is, on some thread
AV> 80c31, then it will be cooler for it.
Yeah, it’s either on AT89C2051 (this is a controller, but not PIC!!! ;), or
on 80c31 + 2716 + IR22... Due to the binary compatibility of the first two.... :-)
Bye...
DN> In what sense are you interested? If in the sense of a diagram, and even with detailed
DN> and smart comments, then yes.
The diagram is not the main thing here... The main thing is the firmware :)
Bye...
IM> And for what we have, it cost $3.5 (if you do it separately) With all
IM> the bells and whistles offered (+AT-keyboard), I think it will be about 10 bucks.
IM> And it’s already clear that this option is not needed...
The control panel for the echotag is also not worth attaching to the alter, due
to the fact that on the MK it is easier to do remapping that is customizable and memorized in the eeprom... :)
IM> But inside the Sprinter PLM, according to the specific cost of cells,
IM> it turned out to be $0.9
IM> (90 cells at a cost of ~1 cent per cell)
Who can argue... about sprinter...
AV> Why are you stirring up trouble? I didn't say that. I wrote about the fact that it is BETTER WITHOUT
AV> PIC CONTROLLERS. Since the echo tag only has a
AV> UFPZU programmer and if the mouse controller is with EXTERNAL ROM, that is, on some thread
AV> 80c31, then it will be cooler for it.
Which is cooler - that’s for sure. The result will be a monster comparable in complexity to
the Spectrum.
The peak programmer from AMD is made in an elementary way, in the simplest case only
from
about five wires. I don’t know how it works for microchip peaks, but I don’t think it’s
much
more difficult. Well, it’s easier to write a program for servicing the programmer for the spec
-- in the computer
there are a lot of all sorts of problems with obtaining access rights to ports and running the program
in real time...
AV>>> And so I saw the diagram - there the percentage is driven from the PIC. This is not
AV>>> rulez at all! And it doesn’t work out any other way.
KF>> Do you know what protocol the mice on the serial interface
KF>> use? And mice are very different. You will need Altera, if
KF>> not of gigantic size, then not small. And there is no need for fairy tales about wait.
KF>> _There_ it works, but somewhere else it can work like that. Or
KF>> put 3 registers, or find a peak quickly. If, for example, the peak
KF>> works at 28 Mhz, and the spec at 3.5 (what will be vented in the turbo -
KF>> doesn’t matter), you get 16 peak cycles to process the request.
VA>>>> some people associate all microcontrollers with these
VA>>>> unfortunate peaks....
DL>>> in the minds of limited people ;)
VA>> No, it’s just that a person may not be very knowledgeable in this area.
DL> why did you get this interpolation? either a very high
DL> polling frequency is enough, or polling synchronously.
For com mice - you understand why.
For ps/2 - you can set up to 200fps, but the mouse is not obliged to send data at exactly
that frequency (it just has to remember that it was set to 200fps), and as for
synchronous polling - what the heck, you still have to drag out the frame rate... Again, you can can't keep up even with the survey - the transmission frequency is not standardized...
Bye...
DL> you forget that to work with PLM you also need knowledge of digital
DL> circuitry, and to work with single-crystal chips this is not always necessary.
What are you hinting at? ;)
In general, first of all, you need to be able to work with software and have the software itself.
Bye...
KF> What’s cooler is for sure. The result will be a monster comparable in complexity
KF> to the Spectrum.
Oh well. 3 small circuits.
KF> The programmer for a peak from AMD is made in an elementary way, in the simplest case
KF> just from
What is a 'peak from AMD'? Clone?
KF> more complicated. Well, it’s easier to write a program for servicing the programmer for the spec
KF> - in the computer
KF> there are a lot of all sorts of problems with obtaining access rights to ports and launching the
KF> program in real time...
I don’t argue, but Spectrumists are not alive alone ;-)
Bye...
In a message of 02 Aug 01 Yury Konovalov wrote to me:
YK> To be honest, I'm more interested in a normal PC keyboard adapter :)
Waveless? ;-)
Maybe I’ll think about it, but only starting in the fall....
Bye...
Thursday 02 Aug 2001 at 22:27:31 Yury Konovalov wrote by Vadik Akimoff
The topic was kempston-mouse
VA> Waveless? ;-)
What exactly is the problem? There are several schemes, Profi, for example, was assembled on VE'shka, and in Gomel someone seemed to come up with it on PIC. I don’t know what it’s like about
whites, but everything seems to be working.
VA> Maybe I’ll think about it, but only starting in the fall....
Come on, come on... It’s a necessary thing in the household :)
03 Aug 01 23:04, Dmitry Lomov wrote to Kirill Frolov:
DL> The PIC divides the frequency by 4, and executes commands at the resulting speed.
DL> it won’t work right away, you need to install the hardware (registers/RAM).
There are peaks from the microchip, and there are peaks from other companies. These peaks
do not divide anything (IMHO they rather have a conveyor).