New debugger
ZXNet echo conference «real.speccy»
Would you like to chat about the “New Debugger”?
I accidentally sent letters to which I did not have time to respond, regarding the subject.
However, I read them and decided to return to the questions that arose. :)
1) Debugging code in trdos.
Whatever one may say, IMHO this is necessary. Otherwise the program will not live up to the proud title of debugger. It should be for all occasions.
2) Debugging speed
Very important, because... I have already said that sometimes it is _very_ necessary to trace a huge
piece of the program.
3) Reading non-standard formats.
For example, a PC disk can be considered non-standard.
4) When tracing, automatically adding a number to the bank number
entered in #7ffd.
Well, I think I remembered everything. :)
Priest^Energy Minds
[TEAM Marinka][TEAM FREEDOM][prie...@mail.ru][TEAM LightWave]
... Energy Minds from Freedom. We are Sinclair's generation.
08 Sep 00 06:49, Alexander Shashkevich -> All:
AS> 1) Debugging code in trdos.
AS> Whatever one may say, IMHO this is necessary. Otherwise the program
AS> will not live up to the proud title of debugger
AS>. It should be for all occasions.
Who needs it? For what? And for the sake of a proud name, it is hardly advisable to debug TR-DOS.
AS> 2) Debugging speed
AS> Very important, because I have already said that sometimes it is _really_ necessary to trace
AS> a huge piece of program.
What speed do you need? And the speed of debugging is inversely proportional to its
capabilities.
AS> 3) Reading non-standard formats.
AS> For example, a PC disk can be considered non-standard.
Why?
AS> 4) Automatically adding a number when tracing to
AS> the number
AS> of the bank entered in #7ffd.
Why?
Regards, George aka -=GPV=-.
September 10, 2000 at 00:05:55: George Valnin -> Alexander Shashkevich
September 13, 2000 at 11:51:46: me -> George Valnin
I read all the author’s comments and decided: I won’t need the fucking subject. I just didn’t understand how it would differ from STS. Too much information on
the screen? Until now I lived without it. New speed? According to the author
this
should not be necessary for me. Correct debugging of HALT and CALL? It won't be for hacking programs, so it means it's showing off. WHAT IS HE GOOD FOR???? To
debug your programs??? So STS is enough in this regard...
/╠─┘╚─┘╚┴┘╚─┘║/
Original was from
AS> Well, I seem to remember everything. :). rel="nofollow">imper...@mail.ru]
16 Sep 00 15:21, Pavel Demchuk wrote to Alexander Shashkevich:
PD> Or there is even an idea to make a breakpoint through RST 8. Only
PD> you will have to correct the crap a little.
MOA already did this a long time ago before you...
Hello, Pavel!
Saturday September 16, 2000 14:21, Pavel Demchuk -> Alexander Shashkevich:
AS>> Well, I think I remembered everything. :)
PD> + selection at the breakpoint out (#fd)/out (c)
PD> Or is there even an idea to make a breakpoint through RST 8. Only
PD> you will have to make a little crazy adjustment.
Isn’t it necessary to set a new percentage there? :)
/_Priest^Energy Minds/_
_[Team Marinka][Team Spectrum][Team FREEDOM][Team LightWave]_
... Energy Minds... Step in future...
KF> MOA already did this a long time ago before you...
so MOA. Who doesn't have Scorpio? Moreover, according to rumors, MOA's debugger has a disabled interface. If only STS had something like this...
PD> so the MOA. Who doesn't have Scorpio? Moreover, according to rumors, the MOA
PD> debugger has an invalid interface. Now, if only this existed in STS...
In STS, the interface is no less disabled. And MOA at least has a command line.
PD>> MOA's debugger has an invalid interface. Now, if only this existed in STS
PD>>...
KF> In STS, the interface is no less disabled.
Well, I don’t know, in my opinion, STS has the most competent interface in comparison with Spec’s
debuggers (mons and others like him), as well as with PCs (from my own experience
I speak) and Amiga (people have spoken). Another thing is that you need to get used to it...
KF> And MOA at least has a command line
KF>.
why is it actually needed, it’s fine without it.
[I ZX] [PHG team] [VANDALS team]
PD>> Or there is even an idea to make a breakpoint through RST 8. Only
PD>> you will have to make a little crazy adjustment.
PD> well, I don’t know, in my opinion, STS has the most competent interface in comparison with
PD> Spec’s debuggers (mons and others like him), as well as with PCs (I speak from
PD> my own experience) and Amiga (people spoke). Another thing,
PD> is that you have to get used to it...
STS has the stupidest interface after Monsieur. The biggest killer
is the inability to quickly view a memory dump.
KF>> At least MOA has a command line.
PD> why is it actually needed, and it’s fine without it.
It works faster and can be used as a calculator.
Imagine some kind of file manager without a command line.
There is such a thing, but it’s like a bottle to let in toys.
KF> STS has the stupidest interface after Mons.
It’s a completely normal interface, the main thing is fast, otherwise how to trace F7 on pussies... is not convenient to the point of disgrace :)
KF> What kills the most
KF> is the inability to quickly view a memory dump.
Why aren’t you satisfied with SS+4?
KF> It works faster and can be used as a calculator.
KF> Imagine some kind of file manager without a command line.
KF> There is such a thing, but it’s like a boot to launch toys.
On Spec IMHO the command line is not needed, and the calculator is already in STS3.2m
26 Sep 00 09:19, Kirill Frolov -> Pavel Demchuk:
KF> STS has the stupidest interface after Monsieur. Most of all
KF> kills
PD> quite a normal interface, the main thing is fast, otherwise it’s like on pussies -
PD> tracing F7... - it’s not convenient to the point of disgrace :)
Once you get used to it, it will seem convenient. There is more information on the screen and there are more useful buttons
, more of everything...
KF>> What kills the most is the inability to quickly view a memory dump.
PD> what is it about SS+4 that doesn’t suit you?
Ha! If I want to look at both the code and the dump at two different
addresses (a typical case), then I will be tortured by entering the addresses by hand
each time (and also writing them down on a piece of paper)!
29 Sep 00 02:02, Kirill Frolov -> Pavel Demchuk:
PD>> quite a normal interface, most importantly fast, otherwise it’s like on pussies
PD>> - trace F7... - it’s incredibly inconvenient :)
KF> You’ll get used to it, it will seem comfortable. There is more information on the screen and
KF> there are more useful buttons, more of everything...
There is more information on the screen only because 80
characters fit horizontally on the screen
By the way, I don’t see anything convenient in constantly clicking video modes
PD>> why don’t you SS+4 Are you satisfied?
KF> Ha! If I want to look at both the code and the dump for two
KF> different addresses (a typical case), then I will struggle to enter addresses by hand every time (and write them down on a piece of paper)!
Which option would suit you? (the question is not entirely out of idle curiosity ;)
KF>>> It works faster and can be used as a calculator.
KF>>> Imagine some kind of file manager without a command
KF>>> line. There is such a thing, but it’s a boot type to launch toys.
PD>> on Spec IMHO the command line is not needed,
KF> Dlq launching toys is not needed.
What is it for?
Isn’t it a more convenient option - press the button, a window appears; entered a value, got
result ?
Mihail
KF>> enter addresses there by hand (and also write them down on a piece of paper)!
ME> Which option would suit you? (the question is not entirely out of idle
ME> curiosity ;)
Something in between a turbo debugger (43 lines) and a degluker (30x90).
It’s better to set the mode to 29x90. There should be windows for disassembler, dump, registers, register dump and stack. And so that in addition it is possible to open more
the same
windows or others - as in a turbo debugger, but only so that 2 disassemblers also
open. In order to be able to change the size and move it, there must be a clipboard, an editor for both hex and text in the dump, and an assembly in the disassembler. Well, absolutely exactly in the input lines, saving history and
calculating expressions. And you need bookmarks too - I put them down and went somewhere,
and then quickly came back. A CALCULATOR that understands expressions
in hex, dec, bin, oct and ascii is a MUST! There is also a command line window from which you can
manage everything, and at the top there is a pop-up menu bar.
KF> Ha! If I want to look at both the code and the dump for two
KF> different addresses (a typical case), then I will be tortured every time there
KF> entering addresses by hand (and also writing them down on a piece of paper)!
how lazy we are, and why then did humanity even come up with a pen and paper.
The Chinese tried, they came up with it, but no one wants to use it ;) And in the same
TD a lot of useful things are done in who knows how many body movements...
KF>> there you have to enter addresses by hand (and also write them down on a piece of paper)!
PD> how lazy we are, and why then did humanity even come up with a pen with
PD> paper. The Chinese tried, they came up with ideas, but no one wants to use
PD> ;)
Well, why not debug the monsom then, if you’re not lazy?
PD> And in the same TD, a lot of useful stuff is done in who knows how many
PD> body movements...
Not a lot. But you need a mouse.
PD>> pen and paper. The Chinese tried, they came up with ideas, but no one
PD>> wants to use it ;)
KF> Well, why not debug Mons then, if you’re not lazy?
you know how difficult it is to get MONS now. And it has fewer opportunities than in
STS.
PD> it turns out fun: the mouse is in the debugger ;) toys okay, but in the
PD> debugger...
Or the command line then. Climbing through the menus on the keyboard - what a perversion!
KF> Upload it to disk and then look in some ripper.
yeah, write down the sprite addresses in a column on a piece of paper :)
wouldn’t it be easier to see the sprite address when tracing the program
look at it? if necessary
▒▒▓▓▓ ▄▀█▀▀▀ ▓▓▓▒▒░░░ Sincerely yours, Yuri /I \
▒▓▓▓ ▐▌▀█▀ ▓▓▓▓▓▓▒▒▒░░░░ Jerri / Alien Factory \ZX/
03 Oct 00 19:21, Yuri Potapov wrote to Kirill Frolov:
YP> did you use the service monitor?
And I don’t know what it is...
KF> I said in the ripper. On the Spectrum, this is Sprite Tools.
Why should I record a dump and load sprite tools to
look at sprites, when you can look at them directly without leaving the pool... oh, from the monitor :)
besides, Sprite Tools is not the most convenient ripper
but about sprites
look at them in the Switch Blade toy from Gremlin graphics
;)
YP> tragic...
YP> The service monitor is hardwired into Scorp's ROM
So say that this is a shadow service. Of course I used it.
YP> according to the author, the interface (with the command line) is similar to
YP> Laser Genius
Laser Genius in our country has probably been seen by no more than a dozen
people...
KF> So what difference does it make to a cool hacker?
a cool is not a cool, but still there is a difference
KF> Or the command line then. Climbing through the menus on the keyboard - this is
KF> a perversion!
that’s exactly what a perversion is, but a debugger with a mouse is also no less a perversion.
KF> And because this is an ideologically incorrect method.
I am not interested in PC ideology, I am interested in the monitor
its technical side
and it is easier for me to work with hot keys and enter 3 numbers
than to spend a long time and painfully typing on a periodically glitching
keyboard Fill #5800,#5aff,#07
^ and here the monitor can’t keep up with me because of the PC keyboard and writes the number 3 between # and 5
PD> again, where is the efficiency? If I had Vida Bula on my Spec, then
PD> I could open STS and ripper at once, and then press reset, load ripper
PD>, then STS again. Long.
and what kind of views are there? There is MAGOS for the scorpion and it is not difficult to do something similar for the Pentagon. And even more so, it would be absolutely simple to launch
the program
from under the STS.
YP> I’m not interested in the PC ideology, I’m on the monitor
It’s not crazy at all.
Hio *Kirill*!
And it all started on 06-Oct-00 at 15:01:46, when Kirill Frolov
talked with Pavel Demchuk about the New debugger
PD>> loading, then again STS. Long.
KF> and what kind of views are there? There is MAGOS for scorpion and it is not difficult to do something similar
KF> for the Pentagon.
The most interesting thing that I have ever seen is
called Memory Comander. And it even worked.
Always yours Combin8or/PHT
so that I still have a scorpion...
KF> and it’s not difficult to do something similar for the Pentagon.
and the Pentagon too ;)
KF> And even more so, it would be absolutely simple to launch the program from under
KF> STS.
why? So it’s not like you’re a commander, but a debugger. If only all sorts of lamers could start writing STS to boot disks and launching files from it ;)
Once Sat 7 Oct 2000 at 00:26:18 Kirill and Yuri were arguing about the topic of the New debugger
KF> There are pros and there are cons. The biggest plus is the presence of
KF> dumps and a command
KF> line.
Why were you bothering with the command line then?
KF>> dumps and command line.
YP> why were you bothering with the command line then?
What do you mean?