The first copy of General Sound is ready!
ZXNet echo conference «hardware.zx»
Hello, All
:v2_yahoo; :v2_yahoo:; :v2_yahoo; :v2_yahoo:; :v2_yahoo; :v2_yahoo:;
:v2_yahoo;
I; I finally made GeneralSound!!!
:v2_yahoo; :v2_yahoo:; :v2_yahoo; :v2_yahoo:; :v2_yahoo; :v2_yahoo:;
:v2_yahoo;
Thank you; Evgeny Muchkin for providing the boards and components.
Does anyone else need a card besides me?
File: gs.jpg http://zx.pk.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=4497
Hello Vitron
Vit> I need it!!!! assembled!!!
Vit>
Vit> how much will it cost?
Financial questions - to Evgeny Muchkin.
I'm just hands and brain.... :v2_wink2; :v2_tong:;
Hello, Mikka_A
I need it!!!! assembled!!!
how much will it cost?
Hello John North
Joh> I'm first in line!
But this is not the first. The fourth, and maybe even the fifth :)
Hello, Mikka_A
Mikka, this photo is like a balm for the soul... :) It’s incredibly nice to see how
bags with microcircuits and other capacitors made by human hands
turn into things like this :)
Hello Orionsoft
Ori> UTRON =)
Why are there emotions about this, if it’s not a secret? :)
Maxagor, dilator scarves will definitely be sold together! Not
yet right away... Mikka_A doesn't have 10 hands, right? ;)
Hello, Maksagor
UTRON after all =)
Hello Vitron
Evgeny Muchkin, I'm first in line! ready to buy!
Hello, Evgeny Muchkin
Let's collect statistics on orders for GS boards...
Hello, Evgeny Muchkin
Aren't they going to build cards with RAM expansion up to 512Kb?
128Kb for MODs in today's times is a big deal...
In general, it’s better to add an extension to 2048Kb (this is possible in GS
provided, as far as I know). If there is such an extension, I’ll tell you
I will definitely buy it for my GS.
Hello, Evgeny Muchkin
Evg> Why are there emotions about this, if it’s not a secret? :)
Evg>
Evg> Maksagor, dilator scarves will definitely be sold together
Evg> there will be! Not all at once... Mikka_A doesn't have 10 hands, right? ;)
I repeat the last part of my question:
expansion cards will only be classic - 512Kb, or possible release
scarf with a lot of brains?
Hello, Maksagor
Why are all the m/s stuck in the panel? To check the logic for the following boards?..
Hello, Mikka_A
Question of interest:
1. Is it difficult to connect such a device to ATM (which is not yet available, but soon
will come)?
2 mega on GS - it would be completely chic, because for more or less at the same time
high-quality and varied sound 512 - just enough :)
Hello, psb
psb> and you didn’t answer the 2nd question. spec 3.5 MHz, even 7, so
psb> how much? I'll tell you: you'll get tired while your meter is loading, no
psb> speaking of 32x. this is not real!!! (4 meters will be loaded from the screw
psb> 5 minutes!!!)
For the sake of fairness, I want to clarify significantly:
At the moment, full TRD images (640Kb) are loaded in the OS TASiS environment on ATM (in
turbo mode - 99880 clock cycles per interrupt - 7 MHz with terrible Waits in memory)
a little less than 4 seconds (3.5-3.8 seconds - difficult to measure more accurately with a stopwatch).
This is approximately 6 seconds per megabyte. Taking into account the fact that in the case of GS it is necessary
first download such a volume from the screw, and then transfer it to GS, we have
double work (let's assume that the throughput speed of the GS bus is equal to that of
screw, although I assume that it is somewhat higher - if so, correct me), plus
we throw another 2-3 seconds for all sorts of unforeseen events (initialization,
additional procedures in memory, etc.). In rounded terms we get 15 seconds for transfer
megabytes from a screw on GS or about 60 seconds (but in reality - most likely 40-50
seconds) for the mentioned 4 mega. Which, of course, is not ideal, but tolerable (some
games from the flop are loaded in about this time).
Hello, psb
psb> and you didn’t answer the 2nd question. spec 3.5 MHz, even 7, so
psb> how much? I'll tell you: you'll get tired while your meter is loading, no
psb> speaking of 32x. this is not real!!! (4 meters will be loaded from the screw
psb> 5 minutes!!!)
This means they will load in 5 minutes. In addition, 21 MHz specs are on the way.
psb> Does GS play MODs?
psb> we consider: the sample in the module is maximum 128 kilos, as far as I remember.
psb> 128*1024*31 = 4063232 = 3.875 meters.
psb> i.e. the module will be no more than 4 meters..
Is this a GS limitation? Then it sucks... We need to fix it, although it’s not
deadly, but not pleasant.
psb> and were they really worth it? I doubt it..
The way they are written makes them worth it. We're not talking about this, but about the potential
possibilities.
psb> and who said that the map should be made for spec?;) right?;)
psb> modules must be small! because these are 1) modules, 2) they are for spec
psb> in this case.
So what's next? Does this mean a 2Gb screw for a spec?
Besides, I didn’t say that you need 32Mb, I just said that you should put
this reserve is not at all superfluous.psb> answer the main question: who will remake the firmware for GS, so that everything
psb> was this supported? objectively - no one! why - not real! either this
psb> is no longer GS.
What is it if not GS? Very much even GS of the next revision.
psb> ps: the mods do not contain 22 kilohertz samples;)))
psb>
Where and how. In order to cram something into 128Kb, they are not so distorted. But we have
There is no problem in the 128 or 512Kb category.
psb> pps: it would be nice to bring these (about 3-4 meters) mods here
psb> it was known for sure whether it was worth it at all..
Lazy to be honest. Search rules, Google will not refuse.
Hello, Mikka_A
Mik> And for his sake I’m ready to endure another third minute...
another minute and I'm ready to suffer for the sake of a good mod, but I have something
doubts that big mods are worth it..
and just a minute - this is for meter mods.. and for larger modules?
what if this is a game that loads 32 meters of sounds? are you willing to wait 20 for this?
minutes? and not just once to check it out, but constantly? isn't it funny?
Hello, Maksagor
> let's assume that the throughput speed of the GS bus is equal to that of the screw, although
> I assume that it is somewhat higher - if so, correct
and here is the error :)
Correction - uploading information on GS is slower.
from a screw you can actually get 80-90 kilo/sec on the 3.5 MHz spec, or even higher
(players have been made, seen), but uploading to GS is... ahem... slow...
from the screw you waited for the data to be ready and went to suck it out. and in GS you need a byte
push, wait until GS accepts it..
Hello, Mikka_A
offtopic:
Mik> We do not provide speed listening, but our own
Mik> pleasure. And for his sake I’m ready to endure another minute or three...
I remember we endured for several minutes after typing LOAD "". But what a anticipation
There was a toy while loading!
This feeling will probably never come back now...
Hello John North
Joh> offtopic:
Joh>
Joh> I remember we suffered for several minutes after typing LOAD "". But what
Joh> there was anticipation while loading the toy!
Joh> this feeling probably can’t be returned now...
offtopic2
and prayed to the gods that the refrigerator would not click. :v2_crazy; :v2_tong2:;
So.
everyone stopped offtopic.... :v2_biggr:
Hello, Maksagor
> ....... for the mentioned 4 mega. Which, of course, is not ideal, but tolerable
> (some games from the flop in about this time and
> loading).......
Thanks Max for your support! :v2_clapp;
I; I think it also depends on the software (player).
Just in a minute, since I tested everything and checked it, I can really say that everything is
much slower..... :v2_cry;
Average; A 100 kb mod takes about 10 seconds to load.
True, there is a small personal BUT of mine.
I don't have a screw. I have CompactFlash.
Well, yes, carry it.
My opinion is that it doesn’t matter how heavy he will be. We’re not auditioning for
We provide speed and our own pleasure. And for his sake I'm ready to endure
another third minute... :v2_thumb:
Hello, psb
psb> and just a minute - this is for meter mods .. and for larger modules
psb> size? what if this is a game that loads 32 meters of sounds? are you ready
psb> wait 20 minutes for this? and not just once to check it out, but constantly? not
psb> Is it funny?
But loaders like tape recorders, where the picture is, will come into fashion again
unfolds gradually so that the user does not get bored while loading.
Hello, TmK
TmK, no one forbids you to write a decoder and load it to work in GS. This
times.
Riff 4.19 is a normal editor! That's two.
“Let’s do it...” well... are you ready to take on this? Let's! I'll be the first to
will say THANK YOU!.. But this matter will not go further than chatter... :( This
three.
PS; Correct; Smart people told me: no one will say thank you...
I'm very glad that they turned out to be only partly right :)
Hello, Jukov
SAX IS FULL!
What the hell is a mod for 4Mb, if five minutes of MP3 192kb weighs about 3.5Mb - current to the circuit
GS add a decoder - already discussed on the forum...
Plus to all this, where have you seen mods become popular these days?
did you use it? ReNoise!!! - that's what's cool now!
If you remember ZX, then finally there was no normal editor!
Let's make a ZX pro with 3.5Ghz memory 1024 Mb, etc. etc. - and let's leave
screen 256x192x8x8 - not funny???
Hello, Evgeny Muchkin
Evg> Riff 4.19 - normal editor!
Are you a musician, so can you give an adequate assessment?
Since 1998, I’ve only heard obscenities from musicians about Riff, confirming it
normality is served by dozens of modules written in it (and not hundreds or thousands,
which could be)...
GS as a sound product in its purest form is nonsense. Now, if you use its percentage
for example in system programs, in games, demos or somewhere else, the board
Almost the size of a Spectrum still somehow justifies itself.
But no one did this. :(
Hello, Evgeny Muchkin
Evg> PS; Right; Smart people told me: no one will say thank you...
Evg> I’m very glad that they turned out to be only partly right :)
Zhenya, don’t worry - other people’s attention is not the most important thing!
Hello new art
new> Now, if you use its percentage, for example, in system programs, in
new> games, demos or somewhere else, the board is almost the size of a Spectrum
new> somehow justifies itself.
new> But no one did this. :(
I tried to use GS as a coprocessor, but because of the exchange speed I gave up
this is the case.
Hello Cyrax Inc.
cyr> ................ but then the question arises, why is it actually needed
cyr> GS?...........
Friends!!!!
Let's not argue and debate about what is better and what is worse.
Some people accept a Mercedes, but some people like a BMW.....
Both are good.
Everyone has different tastes.
I started this topic for those who are interested in ZhS and who would like to receive it...
But it turned out to be a mess, as always... :v2_cry; :v2_cry:; :v2_cry;
PS.; But I need the ZhS to simply diversify the music in games. And that's all. Zunaps
is perceived completely differently.
PSS. Let's go into flames, or start a new topic.
Here I will only post new messages about the production process.
Hello, Evgeny Muchkin
Evg> TmK, no one forbids you to write a decoder and load it to work in
Evg>GS.
software mp3 decoder in GS? OMG! and what will be the output stream?
a hardware decoder is more promising (IMHO), but then the question arises: why is it needed?
GS itself?
Hello new art
new> But no one did this.
I made myself trmshob and global comander with GS memory support... I used it while I was using it
real.. and then that’s it.. I have it lying around somewhere, no one needs it.. there’s no point in it
There are not many such programs - they are big brakes..
Evg> no one forbids writing a decoder and loading it to work in GS
It doesn’t prohibit prohibiting, it’s just... it’s not real!
Hello Cyrax Inc.
cyr> a hardware decoder is more promising (IMHO), but then the question arises
cyr> why do we actually need GS?
For voice acting for games. MP3 will play music and GS will play sounds.
Hello, TmK
TmK> SAX FULL!
If you don't like it, don't eat it, no one forces you. :v2_mad;
TmK>; What for is a 4Mb mod if five minutes of 192kb MP3 weighs about 3.5Mb - current
TmK> add a decoder to the GS circuit - already discussed on the forum...
I have nothing against such a move.
TmK> Plus to all this, where have you seen mods nowadays
Were TmK> popular? ReNoise!!! - that's what it is now
TmK> cool!
Regarding what and for what purposes? Regarding the existing Specovsky, and
even a somewhat underdeveloped GS MOD? Yes, perhaps, go ahead, write
Renois player for spec. For the corresponding components? Yes, quite applicable. Well
wish for everything except the special fans. For me, apart from the above, he is not what
not of interest, normal sound, in general terms, everything comes from him
still can't get it.
TmK> If you remember ZX, then finally there was no normal editor!
TmK> Let's make a ZX program with 3.5 Ghz memory 1024 Mb, etc. etc. - and
TmK> let's leave the screen 256x192x8x8 - isn't it funny???
Again - for what tasks? I’ve already talked about the screen a long time ago, and ATM has
extended modes, which naturally require a new editor.
Hello, Mikka_A
Mikka_A, we look forward to more good news and photo reports! :)
Hello, Evgeny Muchkin
Well done Mikka!
Hello, psb
psb> and here is the error :)
psb> Correction - uploading information is slower on GS.
psb> from a screw you can actually get 80-90 kilos/sec on the 3.5 MHz spec, or even
psb> above (players have been done, seen), but uploading to GS is.. ahem..
psb> brakes..
psb> from the screw you waited for the data to be ready and went to suck it out. and in GS
psb> you need to push the byte, wait until GS accepts it..
If people talk about 4-32MB on GS, then we are talking about a NEW subject. And there
You can think through this bottleneck. And so - I agree...
Hello, psb
psb> I made myself trmshob and global comander with GS memory support.. I used it
psb> while I was using real.. and then that’s it.. I have it lying around somewhere, no one knows it
psb> necessary.. such programs are not of much use - they are big brakes..
psb>
Post it on Virtual TR-DOS - maybe it will be useful to someone. In any case, so that for
no story missing...
Hello, Maksagor
send ...nnnth amount by postal order ... to whom?
Hello Vitron
I’ll clarify where, to whom and how much after I have something to send.
Hello, Maksagor
> then this is exactly about the NEW subject.
then it will no longer be a piece of hardware compatible with GS.. probably.. if we really do it
better, then you need to do NOT THIS way. not on the Z80 for sure... or not only on the z80.
> Post it on Virtual TR-DOS - maybe it will be useful to someone. In any case,
> so that it’s not lost for history...
Well, when I get around to it, I’ll post it... although it’s not all bug-free for me;)
Hello MegaMyth
Meg> ........
Meg>
Meg> This is again my IMHO. But if you like the idea, I allow it
Meg> implement :-). I will only be glad, because the cost of components
Meg> decrease significantly.
well yes well yes.
whoever I ask will write and reset the board..... :v2_blink:
Hello, Maksagor
> and in GS you need to push the byte, wait until GS accepts it..
I would suggest trying to install quartz instead of 12 MHz - 24 MHz, cut
a couple of conductors and put on 2 jumpers... naturally you will have to install
CMOS, the same ones that CHRV has. This modification will give at least twice as much
exchange speed and the ability to add even more features to the GS crap (filters,
effects or some other channels) or will help simplify the circuit. As far as I remember in
circuit 8 DACs!!! where is this so much??? 4 are used for regulation
volume, 4 for channel output... Why not build in, say, two 12
bit DAC, volume level and channel addition (2 right or two left)
produce at the software level.
access no more than 80 ns... For example, CHRV has wonderful, fast devices.
15ns, 512Kb.
This is again my IMHO. But if you like the idea, I allow you to implement it
:-). I will only be glad, because the cost of components will decrease significantly.
Hello MegaMyth
Meg> I would suggest trying to install quartz instead of 12 MHz - 24 MHz
Meg> cut a couple of conductors and throw 2 jumpers... naturally
Meg> you will have to install CMOS percents, those that CHRV has. This
Meg> modification will give at least twice the exchange speed and
Meg> the ability to add even more features to the GS crap (filters, effects
Meg> or some other channels) or will help simplify the circuit. As far as I remember
Meg> there are 8 DACs in the circuit!!! where is this so much??? 4 are used for
Meg> volume control, 4 channels for output... Why not
Meg> let's build in two 12-bit DACs, volume level and addition
Meg> channels (2 right or two left) are produced at the program level.
This is all great, of course, I myself have long proposed increasing the power of the GS,
but filters, effects, recalculation of volume levels, addition of channels in real time on
Z80-21Mhz is basically not realistic. Here we need powers of a completely different order.
You just need to install DSP (56000 or 56300 for example) and not suffer, if only
such things were discussed, BUT who would write such a volume of firmware
difficulties!!!???Now on to the DACs. In principle, there is no point in even looking for 12-bit, 16-bit is easier
take and not use two bits or use to output 16-bit audio
if necessary. It is better to leave the volume as is, in electronic form with
additional DACs, but the panorama must be entered simply in the required
okay (hard IMHO), because this damaged stereo, where there is only
left and right. I have already described my vision of the question, but I will describe it again:
Z80-21Mhz, Memory in the form of Simm 72-Pin or 30-Pin, in the latter case very
It is advisable to have a couple of slots.
DACs 16-bit (the price difference between 8 and 16 is not fundamental now), linear
(with resistor matrix), per channel. Thus we leave the possibility
play a sample at an arbitrary frequency without any recalculation. DACs
to adjust the volume remain and even double in number. Are put
in parallel pairs at the input and the outputs are thrown onto the summing buses of the left and
right channels. So we leave the classic volume control
and introduce human panorama adjustment.
Of course, I would like to see an increase in the number of channels by at least two, it is possible
optional, additional fee.
Second option:
Z80 is replaced by a microcontroller with I2C buses, I2C DACs are hung on them,
the rest is the same. As a result, we have fewer tracks, smaller bodiessizes, and therefore simplifying the wiring, reducing the size of the board.
If you can get the TDA1541 at reasonable prices, it would be ideal
option. PCM55 (parallel input, for a more classic version) and PCM56
(serial input) also nothing.
Hello Mike
Mik> This is all great, of course, I myself have long suggested increasing it
Mik> GS's power, but filters, effects, recalculation of volume levels,
Mik> channel addition in real time on Z80-21Mhz is, in principle, not realistic. Here
Mik> we need powers of a completely different order. You just need to install DSP
Mik> (56000 or 56300 for example) and don’t suffer, if we’re talking about such things
Mik> gone, BUT who would write such a volume of firmware of such complexity
Mik> !!!???
Why would such a device need a Spectrum? This sound reproducing
The device will be an order of magnitude more powerful in terms of computing capabilities than the Specturm.
If we take DSP, then tms320vc5502 - at a price of $15 gives 600MMAC at 300 MHz
Hello Mike
If BF533 suits me, then I’m already designing a board based on it.
Hello andrews
Naturally, there is no point in installing everything on the Z80 - it is difficult and time-consuming. But
proposal for replacing the processor and raising the shreds (while maintaining the frequency
interruptions) will be interesting and inexpensive for those who don’t like to wait long
loading samples. IMHO.
And yet, there are wonderful microcircuits for adjusting volume and balance, and
It’s trivial that when the frequency of the processor increases, it should also cope with the software
by adjusting the volume, I think that in 300-400 cycles it will be possible
calculate.
And in general, we are moving away from the topic... I just suggested speeding it up without any special
costs for loading information into the GS...
Hello deathsoft
dea> Why would such a device need a Spectrum? Data
dea> the sound-reproducing device will be an order of magnitude more powerful
dea> computing capabilities than specturm. If we take DSP, then
dea> tms320vc5502 - at a price of $15 gives 600MMAC at 300 MHz
By the way, I have a couple of such small circuits in stock... although one is soldered, and
both of them have bent legs, maybe not even a pair of legs... So it will be possible
figure it out. And if you, comrade deathsoft, express a desire to shovel the GS on
TMS320vc5402, then I’ll give you this MSX ForFree!
Hello deathsoft
dea> Why would such a device need a Spectrum? Data
dea> the sound-reproducing device will be an order of magnitude more powerful
dea> computing capabilities than specturm. If we take DSP, then
dea> tms320vc5502 - at a price of $15 gives 600MMAC at 300 MHz
For ballast... :)
Why not? Is it a pity for the native spec? :mad;
But; look how simple it is: TMS+SRAM/SIMM/DIMM+DAC+a little powder and
passive strapping = not a large board comparable in price to GS, but with
incomparably more possibilities.
Well.. Apart from the titanic work of writing complex firmware for
TMS'a. :)
But a commercial application appears, for those who are really interested, please contact us.
I won’t write here.
Hello andrews
And they offered to sell me ADSP BF533 for $9
Hello Mike
Mik> Apart from the titanic work of writing complex firmware
Mik> for TMS.
explain what you want in the form of technical specifications... ADSP-BF533 EZ-KIT Lite board
I have it at home for now, and I don’t think I need to study its assembler... and C will be
quite enough, because I write articles for a magazine, I don’t care what the example is
bring
Hello Mike
Mik> You just need to install DSP (56000 or 56300 for example) and don’t suffer
Mik> if we are talking about such things, BUT who will write such a volume
Mik> firmware of such complexity!!!???
Mik>
With appropriate payment, I will write a program not only for 56000, even for
multicow 1892VM2Ya.
Hello KingOfEvil
Kin> With appropriate payment, I will write a program not just for 56000,
Kin> even for multicore 1892VM2Ya.
HO
1. No one offers payment, if you take the application for GS, everything is for your own
circle of spektrumists. If you have a desire, write, people will thank you.
2. Are you sure you can write all the math? This is not very simple
lesson to write DSP firmware for a full-fledged sampler in a day.
Hello Mike
and who needs this sampler? Why is it better than its analogues?
The moral advantage of the GS as a device is that there is already software for it. who
will write software for your sampler? Can I do it directly on a PC? IMHO, this one
the idea is unrealistic and fantastic.
to moderators: please cut all offtopic that is not related to GS into a separate topic
for discussion.
Hello, moroz1999
mor> and who needs this sampler?
For those who need a sampler.
mor> why is it better than its analogues?
It’s not there yet to discuss why it’s better or worse.
mor> who will write software for your sampler?
The one who needs money. Subject to commercial use.
mor> can it be done directly on a PC?
Yes, even for Tetris, it will still be an independent device.
Hello MegaMyth
Meg> then I'll give you this mskh ForFree!
what's the point of them? they are in BGA or PQFP240 packages, the programmer for them costs $800
(domestic company "SKAN"), you can't do anything with snot, you need a fee
do (preferably 4 layers, always with a mask).
There are no particular difficulties with writing firmware; there is even a DSP for this
c++ (for those who don't like assembler). As far as I understand, GS is a regular
player of .mod files (and the most primitive one, supports only 4 channels
mod files), there are a lot of formats that hold a bunch of channels, such as .ult,
.far, .xm, .it, etc., there are also a lot of types of players, etc. all that remains is
sport them for this DSP. For example, the same Cubic Player worked under DOS
on 486 DX40 without any brakes (and 486 is many times slower than this DSP).
Hello budder
bud> How many ZhS do you plan to collect? And when them
bud> can you expect?
bud>
bud> I would buy one.
As already mentioned, GS will be limited to 10 pieces.
But the question is when, this is for Mikka_A and only for him.
PS; Recorded; You're on the wish list. :)
Hello, Mikka_A
Mik> in theory only 10 pieces
My 4th :)
Hello, Evgeny Muchkin
Evg> As already mentioned, there will be 10 GS.
not a modest question - you can answer in a personal message. Will Verbov get anything out of this?
Hello, The Exploited
The> Will Verbov get anything out of this?
When I first started stuttering about the production of GS, I wrote about it.
Hello, Evgeny Muchkin
It began to seem to me that the scarves had already been distributed, and I was in flight!!
(I saw an empty slot in a dream :))...
Hello Vitron
Vit> It began to seem to me that the scarves had already been distributed, and I was in trouble!!
You're third on the list :) So don't worry :)
The boards just haven't been assembled yet. You can torment Mikka_A on this topic ;)
Hello, Evgeny Muchkin
There is no point in tormenting a busy person. especially since he seemed to be sick.
By the way, I’m interested in how much it costs you to make a factory-made board
conditions to compare with our prices..?
:)
Hello Vitron
Vit> ...glad, very glad !!
Vit>
Vit> It’s not worth torturing a busy person. especially since he seemed to be sick.
Vit>
Vit> by the way, I’m interested in how much it costs to make a board in
Vit> factory conditions to compare with our prices..?
Vit>
Vit>
Vit> :)
I have already recovered and am slowly soldering....
And the fees...
Here....
http://www.pcblab.ru/price/
Hello, Mikka_A
And I booked the last GS!!! I've been dreaming about it for a long time, and now it's almost done! Comrade
Mikka_A is doing a very useful job: he is, so to speak, making my dream come true.
Therefore, I ask him to approach responsibly ;)