128 vs 256 turbo
ZXNet echo conference «hardware.zx»
Hello, All
Communicating with current spektrumists I came to the conclusion that there are practically no
people sitting on reals with a memory of less than 256
emulators, which the majority use, allow you to run programs under any
memory
The question is - if, when developing software, the author is faced with the problem of what is better -
pervert using 128 or enjoy using 256, how to solve it?
Maybe 128 kb has already died just like 48?
Maybe turbo mode should have become a standard long ago? or are there other opinions?
I want arguments
Hello, FoX FluFFy^s
128K is very little for modern programs. No need to put the video there, no
digitization. Any real is now easy to expand to 1MB on sims. Probably for this one
volume is better to navigate. Turbo is much more difficult to implement, because in many
The computer is tightly sealed at 4 MHz. Plus on different computers it gives different
acceleration coefficient. But I am for the creation of new programs designed for double
processor speed. Because if someone doesn't have real 7MHz, nothing will interfere
get high in the real world. And one should add to modern mine requirements
General Sound.
Hello, CHRV
CHR> By making such programs you automatically drive everyone either into emuls or
CHR> forget about ZX altogether.
or maybe just the opposite? maybe there will be an incentive? after all, who was yelling! no
software support! I don't care about this piece of hardware! :mad:
Hello, Jukov
Juk> Well, if this is really the case, then I’ll start turbocharging the Quorum. U
Juk> Byte transparent method of RAM regeneration?
byte is an ordinary two-field device.
The lower memory is regenerated by the video controller, the upper memory is regenerated by the processor (/RFSH)
Hello, Jukov
Nope, no need for General.
for a realist, this is a difficult thing to get (especially if he lives outside
RF).
but both 256kb and turbo (no one says that turbo should be strictly
=7mhz), let it be 5, 6.
But about the fact that the pipe is difficult to implement, it’s a mess. It's done like a no-brainer.
and by the way, processors that operate at 4mhz quite well and successfully for several years (> 5)
I work with a turbo (checked by Byte ;) )
Hello, CHRV
Yeah! but the general is just an optional thing - it’s not there - he beeps ay... there is -
Hurray! and everything works in real money... but the rest - you just can’t turn it off :(
Hello, Jukov
Well... This has its own logic... The people over there passed the elite - who has a turbo
there was - everyone used it, judging by the tra-la-la General sound - it’s 100%. yes and 256 -
if necessary, then it’s better - yes...
Hello, breeze
By the way, yes! Either “support whoever can” or “you will scare everyone away.” Maybe as always
- the truth is somewhere between... these were the Mario brothers. demo. there is one int everything, but
110,000 clock cycles are needed it seems. However, it was also played without the turbo. about the sound - clearer
in total - there is no sound, there is always ay... but 256 MB... how are they optional
do?
Hello, CHRV
CHR> By making such programs you automatically drive everyone either into emuls or
CHR> forget about ZX altogether.
Spoil your eyesight at 50Hz frame scan with a b/w image and play
Braking toys at 3.5 MHz are somehow no longer suitable. As Inforkom advised
get the most out of your PC. So why restrain yourself if you really want to?
Hello Sinus
Sin> nope, you don't need General.
Sin> for a realist is a difficult thing to get (especially if he lives outside
Sin> outside the Russian Federation).
Sin>
Sin> but both 256kb and turbo (no one says that there should be a turbo
Sin> strictly =7mhz), let it be 5, 6.
Sin>
Sin> and about the fact that the pipe is difficult to implement, it’s a mess. It's done like a charm.
Sin> and by the way the processors which at 4mhz are not bad and successful for several
Sin> years (> 5) I’ve been working with a turbo (checked by Byte ;) )
Well, if this is really the case, then I’ll start turbocharging the Quorum. Byte
transparent method for RAM regeneration?
Hello, Jukov
By making such programs, you automatically drive everyone either into emuls or into
generally on ZX.
Hello, Witch Doctor
> By the way, yes! Either “support whoever can” or “you will scare everyone away.” Maybe
> as always - the truth is somewhere in between... here were the Mario brothers. demo. there
> one int is all, but it seems like 110,000 clock cycles are needed. however, without a turbo
> was played. about the sound - the clearest thing is that there is no sound, there is always ay... a
> here is 256 MB... how can I make them optional?
Please tell me a link to the Mario Brothers
Hello Sinus
Sin> if this is what I think, then she seems to be a goner.
Sin>
Sin> but it seems to be worth the money (with some kind of TI).
Sin> I don’t know for sure.
Sin>
Sin> if you have TI, you can support the pirates and download from virtual-dyrdos.
I'll be happy to support you, just tell me the name ;)
Hello, Witch Doctor
in reality it's not that simple.
if GS can indeed be replaced to some extent by Ayugrik (and even then it is not clear
what to do with all sorts of explosions and other nonsense - not on a beeper ^_~)
and write a sound engine that would support both GS and AY equally well
breaks.
In order for it to work without a turbo, you need to disable something (number of sprites, additional effects,
reduce the volume of information displayed.
In some places it’s simple, but in others you’ll have to write two different engines.
as an example, a leaflet for a newspaper. a turbocharged car is enough to
scroll screens on different sides per frame without crashing.
but with a non-turbocharged one, you need to grunt the text in advance (= additional
memory costs that would not exist with a turbo) = two completely different engines
but with memory, yeah... especially if it’s almost all filled with data that is actively
are being used.
PS IMHO we need to start making new features. but now it’s really supported
only top memory, and then only in magazines and commanders.
Hello Titus
If this is what I think, then she seems to be a traveler already.
but it seems to be worth the money (with some kind of TI).
I don't know for sure.
if with TI, then you can support the pirates and download from virtual-dyrdos.
Hello, CHRV
CHR> No, you don’t need anything, you need a PC + emulator!
CHR> And the idiots with real money are in Kashchenko.
Nope nefigas.real and the emulator are two completely different things!
And in general, it’s impossible to compare them! Anyone who knows what I’m talking about will understand.
Hello, breeze
bre> or maybe just the opposite? maybe there will be an incentive? after all, who was yelling! no
bre> software support! I don't care about this piece of hardware!
That's right, why do you really need a cool ATM turbo screen? not needed. You must write either with
taking into account the fact that in addition to the screen, people have better things (the most reasonable
approach) or for a specific sophistication of the speck (the most lame approach). A
in order not to go wrong (oops! =))) with the same thing (support for different screens
etc.) a single bank (ftp site or something else) with LIBRARIES and standards is required.
Hello, CHRV
CHR> A small formula:
CHR> autumn - virtualTRDOS for Turbo 2+
CHR> autumn - Tasis for Turbo 2+
CHR> January - release of TimeGal for Turbo 2+ (full-fledged SD game)
You still forgot -
Autumn - release of the game Pang 16c.
> number of sales in 2006 - ONE PAYMENT!
>
> That's all the incentive for you.
Well, the year has only just begun. It's not scary.
Hello, acidrain
Juk> Spoil vision at 50Hz frame scan with b/w image and
Juk> somehow I no longer feel like playing slow toys at 3.5 MHz. Somehow
Juk> Inforcom advised taking the most from the PC. So why restrain yourself
Juk> if you really want to?
Hehe, I wonder who paid for 50 Hz. He's the bourgeoisie on XBoxes and not
steam.
In general, everything is on the PC, down with the Spectrum, screw the Spectrum in the trash!
bre> or maybe just the opposite? maybe there will be an incentive? after all, who was yelling! no
bre> software support! I don't care about this piece of hardware!
Small formula:
autumn - virtualTRDOS for Turbo 2+
autumn - Tasis for Turbo 2+
January - release of TimeGal for Turbo 2+ (full-fledged SD game)
====================================================
number of sales in 2006 - ONE PAYMENT!
That's all the incentive for you.
Hello, acidrain
aci> That's right, why do you need a cool ATM turbo screen? not needed. It is necessary
aci> write either taking into account the fact that in addition to the screen, people have better ones
aci> things (the most reasonable approach) or for a specific feature
aci> speck (the most lame approach). And in order not to be impazza (oops! =)))
aci> with the same (support for different screens, etc.) requires a single bank
aci> (ftp site or something else) with LIBRARIES and standards.
No, you don’t need anything, you need a PC + emulator!
And the idiots with real money are in Kashchenko.
Hello Costa
In short, I have not come across any arguments in favor of supporting 128. I mean
reasonable. And like “you’re screwing everything with this”, that’s all nonsense! on the contrary, iron is cool
we promote :) as on the PC :)))
IMHO the next (13) number is TargrT) (if we live it will be 256 only :)
Hello, CHRV
heh. If it were in memory, then there was a problem.
memory is not needed for newspapers (new texts are just fine from disk
are counted), but the turbo is as effective as it should be.
Hello Titus
Sin> if this is what I think, then she seems to be a goner.
Sin> but it seems to be worth the money (with some kind of TI).
Sin> I don’t know for sure.
Sin> if you have TI, you can support the pirates and download from virtual-dyrdos.
Tit> I will support you with pleasure, just tell me the name ;)
2Titus - I can give you the first Pentium (200MHz, VGA, 2Gb screw). There's a bunch coming
emuls. Can you at least scrape together some money for pickup?
Hello, FoX FluFFy^s
FoX> In short, I have not come across any arguments in favor of supporting 128. I have
FoX> due to reasonable. And like “you’re screwing everything with this”, that’s all nonsense!
FoX> on the contrary, we are promoting cool hardware :) like on the PC :)))
FoX> IMHO next (13) number TargrT) (if we live it will be 256 only :)
You're probably not reading carefully!
128 without turbo is a certain standard by which almost all sophisticated
the clones are compatible, and then confusion and vacillation begins.
By and large, there is no point in newspapers going any further.
On good terms, there was a memory driver somewhere that supports the maximum
clones It is strongly recommended to use it and in general it should
first roll it out and its text should hang on the very main page of the section
"programming". ;).
(C) I think so!
Hello, CHRV
it's logical.
But what to do if there is not enough? send him to smoke somewhere else?
or write a second version of the engine (labor *= 2)?
Hello Titus
I remind you that the minimum configuration is being discussed and not moral principles.
I'll send it to the flame!
Hello Sinus
There is a test for the number of clock cycles - so you need to check whether there is enough for
frame size of a certain number of cycles and then work!
Hello Sinus
Sin> this is logical.
Sin> but what to do when there is not enough? send somewhere to smoke
Sin> away?
Sin> or write a second version of the engine (labor *= 2)?
Well, this is a question for the writer, how he will do it!
Hello Sinus
Sin> All: and yet it’s time to promote the turbo and 256k. ;)
Make a poll. But, IMHO, the results will be inadequate to reality.
CHRV correctly said that soft should start at 128 without turbo. A
using capabilities beyond these parameters can and should be done
optionally, for example, as a Kempston rodent.
Regarding the turbo, I don’t understand the question at all... This system parameter is not necessary
affect nothing except performance and multicolor border d'effects ;)
PS: Flame topic, definitely.
Hello, Witch Doctor
eh! They forced me to look, you monsters. :mad:
Well, what can I say about the game? all sorts of fps limiters don't work
(no matter what you install, it still slows down).
The only thing that helps is turning off the background and stars.
as I already wrote, you can turn off something only if there is something
turn off.
It's in Mario.
and if there is no such thing? what to do?
Hello jdigreze
The fact is that “optionally” you won’t be able to do anything special.
everything that can be “optionally” stuffed into extra memory is also “optional”
You can also load it from disk.
and about the turbo...
Well, yes, if you only make demos in BASIC or chunky skewers, then yes, at least
2500mhz, at least 3mhz - I don’t care.
but if you do something frame-based on the spec, which you can’t even look at without a turbo
It won’t be possible, then everything will be sad.
The analogy with the mouse does not work, because the mouse is 100% replaced by buttons and there are no situations
when such a replacement will at least somehow globally change the complexity of the project.
PS everything that needed to be transferred to the flame has already been transferred.
Zyy. let's do everything under Spec48+AY, and in AY you can only write, but
It is impossible to read registers for any flickers (so that it works without AY).
then it will be compatible.
oh yes, don’t forget about slow memory.
Hello Titus
CHRV: it's high time ;)
All: and yet it’s time to promote the turbo and 256k. ;)
Hello Sinus
In this case, gentlemen, everyone should do the same:
http://trd.speccy.cz/demo_ver/SMB.ZIP
(who asked for a link to Mariov?)
Again, a wonderful thing, yes, apparently, abandoned :(
Hello, CHRV
CHR> Why 256, let’s do it right away.
CHR> Only Scorpios fall off. The rest have meg almost
CHR> for everyone, and well, for some pros and only ZXNEXT 512. :).
ATM-turbo 1 - also 512Kb
Hello, Witch Doctor
> well, here's what I'm talking about:
>
> i.e. All that remains is to decide what to do with 256MB...
Why 256 let’s do it right away.
Only Scorpios will fall off. Almost everyone else has mega, and
Well, some pros only have ZXNEXT 512. :).
Hello, Maksagor
Well, Sinus, I personally think so: don’t waste ass hours on newspapers - it turns out for
128kb. and indeed, the point is to write 2 engines... And the rest is possible
support and, if possible, “optional”. So it turns out?
Hello Sinus
Well, here's what I'm talking about:
i.e. All that remains is to decide what to do with 256MB...
Hello, CHRV
Why will Scorpio people disappear? The bottom one also seems to have 256 MB :)
Hello, Maksagor
CHRV:
Your approach is not correct.
Well, why immediately meg. then let's go straight to poppy / petse / amiga.
you need a little bit.
I remember my childhood days when I considered the byte a miracle of technology, and was afraid
put a “dumb hot object” in there in terms of expansion to 128kb.
and sat at 48 for a long time.
and also told everyone that making software 128 only is lame and not correct.
and then I understood. that in 128 there is a second screen, that in 128 you can scroll
effects, and much more (i.e., not just “more text fits in”, namely,
that data can only be stored in memory and not on disk).
and then I came up with an expansion scheme (because the one I dug up somewhere didn’t work)
and bit the RU-shki for a long time.
so here it is. Now is the time to move forward a little more.
What does 256+turbo support? yes, almost everything that still works is
support
kay-256 and higher
ATM-turbo
Scorpion
Of course, there are nostalgic people who have the “original” lying around on their closet.
spec-128.
but, IMHO, such “nostalgators” who also watch / are interested in something /
they do very little (almost none).
Hello, Witch Doctor
something went offtopic. apparently it’s really a flame topic.
heh.
That’s exactly what I want to do with the newspaper.
It’s no secret that everyone wants to see their own thing in the newspaper.
In the first place, of course, are the texts.
Well, then off we go... some look at the fonts, some at the graphic design, some
on little frills and little things, who appreciates muzaki.
Well, I like “cool” shells.
I want fullscreen. I want color. I want many different fonts. I want pictures in
text. I want pixel-by-pixel scrolling. and finally, I want all this not to happen
slowed down (i.e. it was framed).
with 128 and without a turbo, for such pleasure it is necessary to severely infringe on the rights of the reader:
frequent decluttering, 6px or even 5px font (but the 5px font in the target appeared from
so that it works on the byte).
and supporting something is optional.
Here's how the average software developer (I'll assume) thinks about it:
"here is a feature... and it needs to be supported optionally... that means I need to do
defining this feature, supporting it, inventing what kind of benefit it might have
benefit... why? to support the developers of hardware that no one needs
? ...
WHAT IS IT ALL FOR? I’ll just do it under 128kb-TRDOS and won’t hover for myself
brain."
and this is what the average user thinks (to be honest, although I am a friend
helped to expand the byte to mega, but never took up my own, and here’s why):"heh. new software... and it supports a new feature... well... we'll see.
oh! yes, it’s also optional... hmmm... yes, this software is somehow not great
it turns out cool... let's read the readme... it says that from soldering a new chip
something-1 will appear, and something-2 will become better... well, something-2 is some kind of collective farm,
no big deal.. but what kind of something-1 I can’t even imagine... well, screw it. I won't
bother with a chip"
but here’s what (I) would have thought if I didn’t have to invent optionality:
"oh... a new feature... well, with it you can do this-1 and this-2 better, this-3
faster, and then-4 there were no analogues at all! of course on older models this is
won't work, but maybe it will at least encourage people to buy new hardware from
developers-of-hardware-which-now-at least-someone-needs"
and here are the user's thoughts:
"shimatta! (Japanese for damn) another software that does not work on my outdated
gland. I need to pull myself together and solder the chip."
Hello, captain cobalt
cap> 2. The vast majority of emulators are not able to perceive
cap> frameability.
cap>
I protest! As a person who sometimes uses the channel, I understand very well
framing! Of course, I don’t have a bare LSD monitor, and the scan rate is 100Hz (so
frameness suffers a little), but nevertheless frame from non-frame to
I can easily distinguish it in the emulator, but the clutter is noticeable! Naturally, according to
the acuity of sensations cannot be compared with the real thing on a 50Hz TV, but often it breaks
rewrite something to 3.5" so that you can look at it in real life.
Hello, FoX FluFFy^s
1. Developing for more than 128 was quite reasonable even 10 years ago. See
/Spectrofon#23/Opinion. For example, my spec with more than 128 appeared in 1994.
2. The vast majority of emulators are not able to perceive
framing.
3. There is no convenient way to configure a specific clone.
4. You can do anything you want in free software. This is only for
commercial and “to become famous in the demoscene” you need a wide audience. Even
if it only works for the neighbor next door, but it’s cool, then that’s quite
makes sense. :)
5. However, doing 256 only because of the frame nature is, IMHO, unreasonable. See
also point 2. ;) The complaints “so that it works on Byte” are especially incomprehensible. Let it be
will not work on Byte, but will work on Pentagon128. It will be
encourage Byte owners to own a Pentagon or something more decent.
;)
Hello Sinus
Sounds...
Hello, CHRV
[QUOTE=CHRV]
By and large, there is no point in newspapers going any further.
and here is the meaning. and if you care so much about real people, the disk drives are safer
there will be :) I uploaded 128 kb of graphics and don’t worry about my brain :) let’s say there’s a report in the newspaper about
at some party - someone's faces look at the hyperlinks. they either get sucked in
from the flop (memory 128 is full of crunched text or something else) or removed from memory
, unpack and show)
Hello, lvd
Sinus, let’s vote, otherwise there are a lot of opinions and there’s no point :) Although I’m pushing it! sense
yes! in at least two days such a clash of opinions - otherwise it’s like in a swamp
:)
Hello, FoX FluFFy^s
FoX> and that’s the point.
damn! An example of this is the excellent work with memory in oberon magazine! do you have a frame?
let's pour! :eek:
Hello, breeze
people, that's not what you're talking about. If only there was a turbo ;) - no memory needed for crunching.
and that's it!
Hello, CHRV
CHR> No, you don’t need anything, you need a PC + emulator!
CHR> And the idiots with real money are in Kashchenko.
where is this kashchenko? ;) on the topic in ICQ we've scribbled =)