on the question of the wisdom of using C compilers on spec
ZXNet echo conference «code.zx»
Hello Raider
Rai> There is also a certain Avocet compiler - available in the edonkey network (though it’s better
Rai> use emule client).
finally downloaded
it generates something completely indecent, a lot of unnecessary code (output asm
listing for the source from the first post - 75 kilobytes!), works hard with
double-byte operations and does not optimize anything at all
Moreover, it contains a certain Pre-optimizer, but there is no description of its operation, no
there is no list of settings anywhere
Ftopka, in general, did not impress me :-))
Hello Eltaron
But no one forbids you to write a C compiler yourself (I’m talking about the advantages
I'm not saying anything ;)))
Theoretically, this is not difficult - there is SYNTAX, there are skillful hands ;)
Hello,GriV
I wrote (not 100% SI of course), though under a vacuum processor in a spherical
space (read virtual). I use it as a scripting language for writing and
Amiga projects.
If I have time, I’ll spend my free time working on the spec port.
True, he is ANTI-optimizing ^_~
who needs it? because I’ll write faster on spec on Amma.
Hello,GriV
I wrote (not 100% SI of course), though under a vacuum processor in a spherical
space (read virtual). I use it as a scripting language for writing and
Amiga projects.
If I have time, I’ll spend my free time working on the spec port.
True, he is ANTI-optimizing ^_~
who needs it? because I’ll write faster on spec on ASMA.
Hello Sinus
It is necessary. A C compiler is needed for the Spectrum. Just for writing the main
logic and/or to quickly test your ideas.
Hello,GriV
GriV: speaking of C++ - the advantages are easily done in the form of a preprocessor (C++ => C),
More precisely, they can be easily taken from old open source plus compilers.
For example, this is how SAS/C works on the Amiga.
Hello ws_mason
in fact, other than quickly testing the idea, nothing else will be possible
do ^_~ because there will be brakes.
I'm going to make a native (i.e. host machine == Spectrum) compiler.
because those who use petse can use various other compilers (I don’t remember exactly, but
There are two very good ones. They really aren’t free, but everything has been broken for a long time)
Hello Sinus
Sin> I'm going to do exactly the native one (i.e. host machine == Spectrum)
Sin> compiler.
Sin>
Or maybe a simpler compiler will work on spec? Simplify the syntax, all sorts of
throw out the terrible 32-bit types (you can throw out the types altogether, leave the byte and
Word), compile not into native, but into bytecode. Good for scripting. =))
Hello Eltaron
Elt> why am I all this? no need, I just wanted to share my joy
Elt> found at least one normal compiler :-)
Elt> in general, it is not surprising that it produces such good code, after all
Elt> commercial development for industrial use
Elt> if anyone is interested, the compiler can be downloaded for free from
Elt> www.iar.com(4 mega). It says that this is a demo version, but nothing
Elt> haven't noticed any restrictions yet
Elt>
No restrictions? What about the code size? Haha.
Normal compiler? The normal compiler is called HiTech-C.
Hello, Eltaron
Elt> ┌─- code ───
Elt>
Elt> int main() {
Elt> unsigned char* t;
Elt> t = 16384;
Elt> while (t<16384+6144) {
Elt> *t = 255;
Elt> t++;
Elt> }
Elt> return 0;
Elt> }
Elt>
Elt> └── code ───
Elt>
Hе надо ламерить! Hа C такое пишется гораздо проще:
memset(0x4000, 0x1a00, 0);
Hello fk0
fk0> Normal compiler? The normal compiler is called HiTech-C.
Has anyone tested it for code quality?
Hello, lvd
lvd: simpler compiler? is it even needed then?
C is good because you can reuse code. And there’s really no other compiler
necessary, because Basic48 + Tobos is quite suitable for testing ideas
and as for compiling into bytecode, this is the only way to work normally with
all sorts of terrible 32-bit pointers ^_~
Hello fk0
fk0> No restrictions? What about the code size? Haha.
fk0>
fk0> Normal compiler? The normal compiler is called HiTech-C.
In nature there is version 4.06A (cracked). No restrictions (yet)
noticed.
Hello Sinus
Sin> lvd: simpler compiler? is it even needed then?
Sin> C is good because you can reuse code.
Sin>
What kind of code? All code ON SPECA is written in ASMA ONLY, and it will only be so
and write. A higher level language may be needed only for scripting in
games, for example. And there’s no fucking reusing there. Learn to look at the spec soberly! =)
> and as for compiling into bytecode, that’s the only way it’s possible
> work with all sorts of terrible 32-bit pointers ^_~
Who is in pain? The good thing about stack machine bytecode is that it essentially does
reverse Polish notation, into which ordinary infix expressions are translated when
using 1 stack.
Hello, lvd
lvd
Scripting in games on spec is only possible in adventure and RPG games.
because in all other cases it will be slow.
creating a C compiler on spec is interesting, so to speak, not from a practical point of view, but from a
scientific point of view ^_~
and as for the reverse Polish notation, this is obvious, I’m talking about dynamic
memory allocation > 64k and that a normal linear pointer is more interesting
than two [memory-bank, address-in-bank]
Hello, lvd
lvd> What exactly will be slow, oh great Gamedev theorist on the Spectrum!
lvd> Enlighten your lowest servant! :)
what will be slow? All!
Let's say we're making a simple arcade game (like Mario). but not the same as they did
in the 80s, but more recently. with frame scrolling at least.
and where to insert the virtual machine if scrolling kills 90% of the processor
time? and the remaining 10% will be spent on playing the muse and polling the controls.
> Authentic! Create and report the results. Maybe you can even write an article
> where - we will be proud of such a place with world fame! =)))
I’ve written a lot of compilers, and I have no desire to show off (to write articles there and
all sorts of things).
I'm interested to see how usable it will be. I'll take a look. what if
you need reports and results, then this is not for me.
> What is more interesting is what is useful...
oh! and what should we do for the benefit of the Spectrum, what will be of great benefit?
scalding toys? or maybe make some systems?
demos?
A! I need to make a newspaper! just something no one even lifts a finger for anything
doesn't want to.
do it, don’t do it, things won’t get any better for me.
Hello Sinus
Sin> lvd
Sin> scripting in games on spec is possible only in adventure games and
Sin> RPG-shkah. because in all other cases it will be slow.
Sin>
What exactly will be slow, oh great theorist Gamedev on the Spectrum! Enlighten
your lowest servant! :)
> creating a C compiler on spec is interesting, so to speak, not from a practical standpoint
> and from a scientific point of view ^_~
>
Atlichnaya! Create and report the results. Maybe you can even write an article somewhere - we
Let us be proud of such a place with world fame! =)))
> and as for the reverse Polish notation, this is obvious, I’m talking about dynamic
> memory allocation > 64k and that's a normal linear pointer
> more interesting
> than two [memory-bank, address-in-bank]
What is more interesting is what is useful...
Hello Sinus
Sin> what will be slow? that's it!
Sin> let's say we're making a simple arcade game (like Mario). but not like this
Sin> what they did in the 80s, and more modernly. with frame scrolling though
Sin> would.
Sin>
With frame scrolling in a 10x10 point? Or full screen?
> and where to insert the virtual machine if scrolling kills 90%
> CPU time? and the remaining 10% will go to playing the muse and
> management survey.
>
You wrote compilers, and I wrote multi-task intros. So don't worry, I'll put it in
if necessary.
> I wrote a lot of compilers, and I have no desire to show off (write
> articles there and stuff).
> I'm interested to see how usable it will be. I'll take a look.
> and if you need reports and results, then this is not for me.
>
But nevertheless, you are already showing off. "Me! Compiler on spec! There are tons of compilers
wrote!" etc.
> oh! and what should be done for the benefit of the Spectrum, what is the benefit
> will it be great?
> scald toys? or maybe I can make a system?> demos?
> ah! I need to make a newspaper! just something no one even lifts a finger for anything
> does not want to move.
> do it, don’t do it, things won’t get any better.
It’s better to make this super-duper mega compiler, which needs mega memory and which
compiles 1 line per second. This will be a mega benefit. alasm and other asmas
They'll bury it.
Hello, lvd
lvd> It's better to make a super-duper mega compiler that needs mega memory
lvd> and which compiles 1 line per second.
Any undertaking is valuable to Spec! :) But there are already a huge number of compilers and asms
a lot, and game making is still experiencing major difficulties in the form of a shortage
wow...
Hello, lvd
Folks, no one wants to test various optimality/volume/speed
C versions for CP/M, posted on my website http://atmturbo.nedopc.com?
Interesting to know the results...
Hello, lvd
lvd:
frame scroll? in full screen of course!
Frame scrolls in the glasses are lamoso.
> It’s better to make a super-duper mega compiler that needs mega memory
> and which compiles 1 line per second. This will be a mega benefit.
> alasm and other asmas will be buried.
I was talking about the speed of execution of compiled code, but the compiler is also
nimble.
Hello, lvd
lvd> Lamoso is a frame scroll across the entire screen (horizontally, hehe).
lvd> Because it is unnecessary and harmful in the din. Free =)
Fuck it! Framing rules!
Or does the brake scroll through familiar places?
> Well, yes, I remember such nimble corpses and borlantsi on 2 trucks
> worked. And there is no need to say that it will be faster for you. It will be faster
> - the code will be shitty. It will be slower - the code is still shitty
> compared to asm. Total - nahua?
Well, where did I start? what about the spec compiler if you have asm?
Hello Sinus
Sin> lvd:
Sin> frame scroll? in full screen of course!
Sin> frame scrolls in the glasses are lamoso.
Sin>
Lamoso is a frame scroll across the entire screen (horizontally, hehe). Because
unnecessary and harmful in the din. Free =)
> ... didn’t understand the trick. who needs mega memory and what will compile 1 line in
> second?
>
> I was talking about the execution speed of compiled code, but the compiler
> he's also smart.
Well, yes, I remember how such nimble corpses and borlantsy worked on 2 trucks. And not
I must say that it will be faster for you. It will be faster - the code will be shitty.
It will be slower - the code is still shitty compared to Asm. Total - nahua?
Hello Sinus
Sin> screw it! Framing rules!
Sin>
Well, show me at least one FULL SCREEN frame game, where the whole screen is
will it scroll frame-wise? I don’t have those, because I don’t need nafik.
> or is it slow scrolling through familiar places?
>
What, for example, savage doesn’t drive?
> well, where did I start? How about a compiler on spec if you have ASM?
I explained to you why. I don’t know what this compiler is for. You
fan them.
Hello fk0
fk0> No need to lame! This is written much easier in C:
fk0>
fk0> memset(0x4000, 0x1a00, 0);
what are you saying...
How come you haven’t remembered ZeroMemory(..) yet?
it is also written in _Russian in white_ that _on purpose_ there is not a single standard lib
connected
if you want to take a sip of grief, manually pushing it while earning money
hemorrhoids - compile your memset
Hello, lvd
To Sinus:
Respecting your opinion on all issues, we nevertheless express our
moderator's doubt :)
Hello Eltaron
Elt> memset(0x4000, 0x1a00, 0);
Elt>
Elt> what are you saying....
Elt> how come you haven’t remembered ZeroMemory(..) yet?
Elt>
I don’t even know what it is and I don’t want to know. I know ISO, IEEE, POSIX...
I don’t know anything about Microsoft and I don’t want to know.
> it is also written in _Russian in white_ that _on purpose_ not a single one
> standard lib not connected
>
And don't. Only *.h. Because this function is expanded by the compiler into LDIR.
Hello, lvd
lvd> Well, show me at least one FULL SCREEN frame game where all the stuff is
lvd> will the screen scroll frame-wise? There are no such people, because there is no need for nafik.
I don’t watch the Troy Game competition religiously, but people said that there is something
Mario, which is absolutely nothing like frame.
> What, for example, savage doesn’t rule?
I don't like it.
Monstrland rules. but this is a little off topic for frame scrolling.
PS I'm wrapping up, because we are gradually moving into an overtopic ^_~
Hello, ewgeny7
ewg> To Sinus:
ewg> Respecting your opinion on all issues, we nevertheless express ours
ewg> moderator doubt :)
We express our user doubt that the moderator has wandered into the wrong section! =))
Hello fk0
fk0> I don’t know anything about Microsoft and don’t want to know.
ah, well, everything is clear with you, it was you who bent your fingers :-)
I thought that either a lamer who had read a book about
Since a couple of weeks ago, or a finger-bending pro :-)
fk0> And don't. Only *.h. Because this function is expanded by the compiler in
fk0> LDIR.
if I wanted to test the quality of the compiler's expansion of the memset into ldir,
I would say so
and I was looking at the code that would generate a compiler for a simple loop and work with
memory
Hello Eltaron
Elt> if I wanted to test the quality of expansion by the compiler
Elt> memset in ldir, I would say so
Elt> and I looked at the code that the compiler would generate for a simple loop and
Elt> working with memory
If you wanted to test something, you could easily
I came across numerous benchmarks on Google. I don’t know what about
fingered pros, and all sorts of KEIL software compilers are tested like this.
Hello fk0
What if we take HiSoft C (after all, it is the most normal?)
disassemble it and modify it to the desired standard (ANSI, support for the upper
memory, syntax highlighting, etc. etc.)? Or is this nonsense?
Hello, CityAceE
Cit> What if we take HiSoft C (after all, it is the most normal?)
Cit> disassemble it and modify it to the required standard (ANSI, support
Cit> upper memory, syntax highlighting, etc. etc.)? Or is this this
Cit> nonsense?
Disassemble? It’s easier to write from scratch if with such quality
code. "Dragon book" in hand, and forward. You can go towards sdcc and z88dk
look...
*Hello, Stanislav!*
Catch my ideas about the subject "on the question of the reasonableness of use
C compilers on spec", which your footcloth to comrade was talking about on 30 Nov 2005.
All.
SY> What if we take HiSoft C (after all, it is the most normal?)
SY> disassemble it and modify it to the required standard (ANSI, support
SY> upper memory, syntax highlighting, etc. etc.)? Or is this nonsense?
Wow, that's a good idea. Only IMHO, it’s still easier not in the code of Hisoft’s C
It’s a bit of a hassle to arrange, but to screw up your own. It will come out much faster. :)
/That’s all, Stanislav, you can scroll further.../
Hello Eltaron
Elt> has been on this topic for a long time
Elt> if anyone is interested, the compiler can be downloaded for free from
Elt> www.iar.com(4 mega). It says that this is a demo version, but nothing
Elt> haven't noticed any restrictions yet
Elt>
Elt> Threat, everywhere from the code generated by the compiler, all garbage and the code itself have been cleaned
Elt> redesigned for normal assembly by third-party Spectrum
Elt> assembler (I used sjasm)
This joy will continue for 30 days if it is not cured in time
Hello andrews
I don’t know, maybe on the forum you can’t give links to programs with medicine,
but still:
HiTech Z80 C v7.50;
http://rapidshare.de/files/26976853/HiTech_Z80_C-compiler.v.7.50.w.CR.exe.html;
Embedded Systems - Avocet WideUI V3.28 ANSI-C Compiler for Z80;
http://rapidshare.de/files/26978002/Embedded_Systems_-_Avocet_WideUI_V3.28_ANSI
-C_Compiler_for_Z80.rar.html;
It would be interesting to know how good they are.