AXIS
ZXNet echo conference «code.zx»
*Hello, Aleksey!*
Catch my ideas about the subject “Unified Graphic Format”, about which
your foot wrap to comrade cracked on May 14, 2004. Alexander Bondarenko.
AB>> Well, I’m telling you - everything rests on the AXIS....
AS> So what prevents you from creating it? The burden of past software? Disunity
AS> writing attempts?
The absence of a Microsoft branch on Spec... They would have written that it was 100 pounds.
In general, some interesting crap is coming out.
Here IS-DOS - this was the first attempt to create a new axis, and it was the most
successful. Although, internally, IS-DOS is not an axis.
I can’t say anything about Pink Floyd, I’ve never seen him.
Then there was NEOS. This is already a cooler thing in the internal plan, but in view of the fact that
that it had to be flashed into ROM, distribution, as well as support, was not
received. Yes, it was not finished, there were a lot of glitches in it and more authors
fooled around with the command interpreter... But if NEOS had been fooled by
glitches, and made it downloadable, then the effect would be better.
Other attempts to write axes also did not lead to anything. Well it's a no brainer
because of what, these were really just attempts...
/That’s all, Aleksey, you can scroll further.../
Hello Alexander!
15 May 04 11:32, Alexander Bondarenko -> Aleksey Senilov:
AB> Although, internally, IS-DOS is not an axis.
Why? No worse than MSDOS.
The only bad thing is that they chose their own format, but they could have used MSDOS (after all, there
There are almost no differences, and the MSDOS driver reads the disks (but does not identify them)).
True, in ISDOS it’s 800kb (in MSDOS 720), but they could transparently support both
- then the attempt would have been much more successful.
Best regards, Evgeniy.
Hello, _/Alexander/_!
May 15, 2004 11:32, Alexander Bondarenko wrote to Aleksey Senilov:
AS>> So what prevents you from creating it? The burden of past software? Disunity
AS>> writing attempts?
AB> Absence of a Microsoft branch on Spec... They would have written this
AB> 100 pounds.
They are not interested in this due to the lack of commercial benefits.
AB> In general, some interesting crap is coming out.
AB> Here is IS-DOS - this was the first attempt to create a new axis, and it was
AB> the most successful. Although, internally, IS-DOS is not an axis.
I didn’t like a lot of things there, especially when I tried to write something, but overall
Yes, this is the most developed of all that was.
I remember that I wrote a universal game loader, and if the game is 48th, then with
the ability to exit back to the OS. Well, and so, in detail...
AB> I can’t say anything about Pink Floyd, I’ve never seen him.
I saw this case. Everything is graphic, beautiful, but at the same time terribly slow. And by
essentially no different from a bunch of other . Except practically
implemented by the browser.
AB> Then there was NEOS. This is already a cooler thing internally, butAB> due to the fact that it had to be flashed into ROM, distribution,
In other words, special hardware requirements.
AB> and did not receive any support. Yes, it was not finished, there are glitches in it
AB> there were a bunch and the authors also messed around with the command interpreter...
What do you think they did with the interpreter?
AB> But if NEOS had been cheated out of glitches and made downloadable, then
AB> the effect would be better.
By the way, in reality the effect of OS in ROM is much higher than from
downloadable. And there is more memory, and you can forget about the trdos-rom, and calls can be
rst do, and so on. But if only it could be changed so easily...
AB> Other attempts to write axes also did not lead to anything. Hy there hedgehog
AB> it’s clear why, these were really just attempts...
I won’t call my “attempt” OS, of course, it’s purely an add-on to trdos with
command line (x-dos). But after that many times I started something exactly
OS-similar, at least such components as process managers, memory managers,
and some others, were implemented several times. Usually stopped
everything is on the disk system.
See you again! Best regards, Thann.
*Hello, Eugene!*
Catch my ideas about the subject "AXIS", which yours was talking about on May 16, 2004
foot wrap for comrade Alexander Bondarenko.
AB>> Although, internally, IS-DOS is not an axis.
EP> Why ?
Well, first of all, there is nowhere for programmers to develop. And secondly, there are so many functions
in a half-finished form, and in addition to everything, the shell is integrated into the core. No,
theoretically IS-DOS can be called an axis, but in practice it is not an axis.
EP> No worse than MSDOS.
Hey don't tell me. MS-DOS has a lot of things that IS-DOS doesn't... :(
EP> The only bad thing is that they chose their own format, but they could have MSDOS (there
EP> there are almost no differences, and the MSDOS driver reads disks (but not
EP> identifies)). True, in ISDOS it’s 800kb (in MSDOS 720), but they could
EP> if both were transparently supported - then the attempt would be much more
EP> successful.
Exactly. By the way, you can support the MS-DOS format transparently, but this
the whole system will have to be rebuilt...
/That’s all, Eugene, you can scroll further.../
Hello, Alexander!
Mon, 17 May 04 at 18:01, Alexander Bondarenko -> Eugene Palenock:
AB>>> Although, internally, IS-DOS is not an axis.
EP>> Why ?
AB> Well, first of all, there is no room for programming there. And secondly, never mind
AB> functions in a half-finished form,
I didn't notice. It works as described in the doc.
AB> and in addition to everything, the shell is integrated into the core.
Remove the shell.sys level and do not use functions with numbers greater than #80. Levels
They are demolished in the same way as the drivers, they have the same device. Since then only
The difference is that the driver usually has 4 entry points, and the level has 32.
AB> No, theoretically IS-DOS can be called an axis, but in practice it is not an axis.
EP>> No worse than MSDOS.
AB> Oh, don’t tell me. MS-DOS has a lot of things that IS-DOS doesn't... :(
The following letters contain lists of ms-dos and isdos functions. 98 pieces for ms-dos versus
147 at is-dos.
As if for the first time I saw what ms-dos is from the inside - I almost burst into tears. One to
one ancient CP/M with minor differences. And then I understood why at the PC
assembler is unpopular... Not only is the processor inconvenient, but also the operating system
let us down.EP>> The only bad thing is that they chose their own format, but they could have MSDOS (there
EP>> there are almost no differences, and the MSDOS driver reads disks (but not
EP>> identifies)).
By the way, the perfect driver doesn’t care what kind of disks it reads. I remember him
disassembled and corrected it so that it worked faster and did not depend on trdos
variables. It turned out to be a completely ordinary turbo driver. Ruiner showed the sorce, he
I had a little fight and did something of my own, in addition to reading HD 1.6 MB disks.
EP>> True, in ISDOS it’s 800kb (in MSDOS 720), but they could
EP>> if both were transparently supported - then the attempt would be much more
EP>> successful.
AB> Exactly. By the way, you can support the MS-DOS format transparently, but this
AB> the entire system will have to be redone...
Oh well? Transparent support for tr-dos through the translator driver has been done. U
I even have the source code saved somewhere. True tr-dos disks are only R/O. write
You can’t understand why. Ms-dos can be made R/W, because the formats
little different.
WBR, Jason.
_/(ZX)/_ /*e-mail: jason2000(scary dog)yandex.ru ICQ: 62235830*/
/np:/ *silence*
Hello, Alexander!
Sat, 15 May 04 at 11:32, Alexander Bondarenko -> Aleksey Senilov:
AS>> So what prevents you from creating it? The burden of past software? Disunity
AS>> writing attempts?
AB> Absence of a Microsoft branch on Speck... They would have written that it was 100 pounds.
AB> In general, some interesting crap is coming out.
AB> Here is IS-DOS - this was the first attempt to create a new axis, and it was the most
AB> successful. Although, internally, IS-DOS is not an axis.
Did you write for it?
WBR, Jason.
_/(ZX)/_ /*e-mail: jason2000(scary dog)yandex.ru ICQ: 62235830*/
/np:/ *silence*
Hello Alexander!
17 May 04 18:01, Alexander Bondarenko -> Eugene Palenock:
EP>> No worse than MSDOS.
AB> Hy don’t tell me. MS-DOS has a lot of things that IS-DOS has
AB> no... :(
For example?
Unless some application programs and hardware-dependent functions...
EP>> The only bad thing is that they chose their own format, but they could have MSDOS
EP>> (there
EP>> there are almost no differences, and the MSDOS driver reads disks (but not
EP>> identifies)). True, in ISDOS it’s 800kb (in MSDOS 720), but
EP>> both could transparently support - then the attempt would be much easier
EP>> more successful.
AB> Exactly. By the way, you can support MS-DOS format
AB> transparent, but this will have to redesign the entire system...
Now, yes, it’s too late. But initially, they easily could have.
Best regards, Evgeniy.
*Hello, Aleksey!*
Catch my ideas about the subject "AXIS", which yours was talking about on May 17, 2004
foot wrap for comrade Alexander Bondarenko.
[gnawed]
AB>> I can’t say anything about Pink Floyd, I’ve never seen him.
AS> I saw this case. Everything is graphic, beautiful, but at the same time creepy
AS> brake. And in fact it is no different from a bunch of other .
AS> Unless it is a practically implemented browser.
Browser? ;) Interesting.
By the way, where can you really get this thing?
AB>> Then there was NEOS. This is already a cooler thing internally, but
AB>> due to the fact that it had to be flashed into ROM
AS> In other words, special hardware requirements.
Yes, which are not present on all computers.
AB>> and did not receive any support. Yes, it wasn’t finished, there were glitches in
AB>> there was a bunch of it and the authors also messed with the team
AB>> interpreter...
AS> What do you think they did with the interpreter?
Yes, they came up with something of their own, as always. Who launches the executables with the RUN command?
And also executable extensions - neither *.com, nor *.exe, but *.prg,,, It would be better
the principle of IS-DOS is the same. AB>> But if NEOS had been cheated out of glitches and made downloadable,
AB>> then the effect would be better.
AS> By the way, in reality the effect of the OS in ROM is much higher than from
AS> loading. And there is more memory, and you can forget about trdos-rom, and calls
AS> you can do it using rst, etc.
This is understandable.
AS> But if only this could be changed so easily...
In principle, it is possible to make the axis freely loaded to any address. Then her
It will be possible to load it into regular memory, and flash it into the cache and ROM. Here
the only problem is that if we use the first loading option, then
it is better for the system to sit not as a single block, but in two parts - for lower memory and
for the top. In principle, it is possible to achieve savings in lower memory if there
cram in only what you like should sit at the bottom for normal operation
axles, and stuff everything else into the tower. We here at one time counted, in general 5-8
A kilobyte at the bottom is enough, you can make this block even smaller. Why
Another thing that can really be done is to push out the system variables bass, then that’s the same place
will be released.
AB>> Other attempts to write axes also did not lead to anything. Hy there AB>> it’s clear why, these were really just attempts...
AS> I won’t call my “attempt” an AXIS, of course, it’s purely an add-on
AS> trdosome with command line (x-dos). But after that I started many times
AS> something exactly OS-like, at least such components as
AS> process managers, memory managers, and some others were implemented by
AS> several times. Usually everything stopped on the disk system.
The most annoying thing, it seems... ;)
/That’s all, Aleksey, you can scroll further.../
*Hello, Valerij!*
Catch my ideas about the subject "AXIS", which yours was talking about on May 18, 2004
foot wrap for comrade Alexander Bondarenko.
AS>>> So what prevents you from creating it? The burden of past software? Disunity
AS>>> writing attempts?
AB>> Absence of a Microsoft branch on Spec... They would have written this
AB>> 100 pounds. In general, some interesting crap is coming out. Here is IS-DOS -
AB>> this was the first attempt to create a new axis, and it was
AB>> the most successful. Although, internally, IS-DOS is not an axis.
VK> Did you write for it?
Yes, it happened. One of my creations is a virus that is attributed to everyone
students in the directory, and then, when they run out of uninfected ones in it,
jumps into another.
/That’s all, Valerij, you can scroll further.../
And how is your nothing, Aleksey!
I am writing to you from a burning tank...
Mon 17 May 2004 13:17:16, Aleksey Senilov -> Alexander Bondarenko:
AS> By the way, in reality the effect of the OS in the ROM is much greater
AS> is higher than the downloadable one. And there is more memory, and you can use it
AS> forget trdos-rom, and calls can be made via rst, etc.
AS> But if only it could be changed so easily...
I have a 128k ROM in my ATM, of course that’s not enough, I just bought the same static
I installed the port and now, if necessary, I simply load any OS or BIOS,
this kind of thing goes wrong with the shadow or with the substitution of 0 bank in many cars (scorpions
pros, etc.) is this really a problem?
Best regards, Niko Sun ATM-turbo rulezzz!!!
mail: niko-sun@rin.ru Si yo leter, Aleksey ...
icq 250109788
Hello, _/Alexander/_!
May 18, 2004 23:27, Alexander Bondarenko wrote to Aleksey Senilov:
AS>> I saw this case. Everything is graphic, beautiful, but at the same time creepy
AS>> brake. And essentially no different from a bunch of others
AS>> . Unless it's a practically implemented browser.
AB> Browser? ;) Interesting.
AB> By the way, where can you really get this stuff?
I can throw it on the soap if necessary.
AS>> What do you think they did with the interpreter?
AB> Yes, they came up with something of their own, as always. Who will launch the exe files
AB> with the RUN command? And also executable extensions - neither *.com, nor *.exe, but
AB> *.prg,,, It would be better to do the same thing based on the IS-DOS principle.
I haven't tinkered with it too much, so I don't know. Yes, this is certainly not the case. In this
In terms of everything I have according to the standard :)
AS>> By the way, in reality the effect of the OS in ROM is much higher than
AS>> from the one being loaded. And there is more memory, and you can forget about trdos-rom, and
AS>> calls can be made via rst, etc.
AS>> But if only it could be changed so easily...AB> In principle, it is possible to make the axis freely loaded to any address.
AB> Then it can be loaded into regular memory, cache and ROM
AB> flash. The only problem here is that if we use the first one
AB> loading option, then it is better for the system to sit not in a single block, but in two
AB> parts - for the lower memory and for the upper.
Are you talking about how to split 16Kb? Yes, of course, the font can definitely be at the top, but
at the same time, everything related to printing, keyboards, etc. Naturally, that's all
slows things down a bit, but OS functions are not for demos :)
And one more thing, in my opinion, the GUI should only be an add-on or library,
but not built in!
AB> In principle, it is possible to achieve
AB> saving on lower memory if you cram in only what you love
AB> should sit at the bottom for normal operation of the axis, and everything else
AB> push into the tower. We here at one time counted, in general 5-8 kilobytes per
AB> the bottom is enough, you can make this block even smaller. Why
AB> Another thing that can really be done is to push back the system variables, then
AB> will also free up space.5-8Kb? Of course that's enough. And then most of the time will be taken up not by the code, but by all sorts of
tables and variables.
AS>> I won’t call my “attempt” an AXIS, of course, this is purely an add-on
AS>> over command line trdos (x-dos). But after that many times
AS>> started something exactly OS-like, at least these
AS>> components such as process managers, memory managers, and some others
AS>> were implemented several times. Everything usually stopped at
AS>> disk system.
AB> The most annoying thing, it seems... ;)
In the last attempt I even attached a floppy drive driver. :) It's just like this:
I want a normal file system, but I really don’t want FAT. :)
See you again! Best regards, Thann.
Hello, _/Nik/_!
May 23, 2004 19:00, Nik Aleksandrovich wrote to Aleksey Senilov:
AS>> By the way, in reality the effect of the OS in ROM is much greater
AS>> higher than the downloadable one. And there is more memory, and you can use it
AS>> forget trdos-rom, and calls can be made via rst, etc.
AS>> But if only it could be changed so easily...
NA> I have a 128k ROM in my ATM, of course that’s not enough, I just bought one
NA> I installed the static port and now, if necessary, I simply load any
NA> OS or BIOS, something like this is confused with the shadow or with the substitution of 0 bank in
NA> many cars (pro scorpions, etc.) is this really a problem?
In many, let’s say, but not in all? And in all variants of this
ROM VG ports available?
And take into account all the options... let’s say it’s still possible with ports, but if calls
OS functions by rst, which means these programs will only work if the OS is in
ROM
See you again! Best regards, Thann.
Press RESET immediately, Aleksey Senilov!
On Wed, 09 Jun 04 11:30:52 +0400, Aleksey Senilov wrote:
NA>> OS or BIOS, something like this is confused with the shadow or with the substitution of 0 bank in
NA>> many cars (pro scorpions, etc.) is this really a problem?
AS> In many, let’s say, but not in all? And in all variants
AS> VG ports are available for this ROM?
What do the VG ports have to do with it? And “axis in ROM” makes sense when
saving only the boot ROM disk in that ROM. This is my opinion.
Otherwise, compatibility is lost (where do you put it in the Scorpio PROF-ROM
will you put it in?), the volume of ROM is already insufficient, and a lot is required
namely RAM, not code memory.
AS> And take into account all the options... with ports, for example, it’s still possible, but if calls
AS> OS functions by rst, which means these programs will only work if the OS
AS> in ROM.
Calling via RST is not rational. There are more than a hundred cycles per call, only
to save one byte. In addition, there is a limit of 256 functions.
CALL through the transition table (37 cycles per call) is more profitable in all
relations, in addition, it easily allows for the possibility of dynamic loading
and substitution of functions. For example, it is possible to call through a certain
a proxy function to enable the desired memory page:call blablabla
....
blablabla:
; jp real_blalabla
; заменяем на:
jp fake_blablabla
....
fake_blablabla:
push hl
ld hl, real_blablabla
ld a, N
jp proxy
proxy:
push bc
ld bc, 0x7ffd
out (c), a
pop bc
ex (sp), hl
ret