Asma and ease of development
ZXNet echo conference «code.zx»
Hello, moroz1999
mor> thanks everyone!
mor>
mor> in general, for me the ideal of convenience would be:
mor> 1. I edit on PC in a custom editor
mor> 2. I compile in a cross-assembler into a snapshot file, which is automatically
mor> runs in the emulator.
mor>
mor> any ideas on how to achieve this?
Sjasm+. The syntax is almost alasm, it is possible to work with Specov's
file formats (.trd, hobeta), you can take a snapshot from the code, plus everything
a nice feature - you can upload labels to disk in a file whose format it understands
Unreal, so that it would show them in the built-in debugger. About the editor -
I added Sjasm support to MuitiEdit - more than nice. It was possible
jump to marks in the text, and position for errors during assembly
cursor It turned out to be a full-fledged IDE.
Hello fk0
> I don’t know what convenience there might be in WRITING.
A set of commands, macro functions, “short” recordings.
I use SJAsm+, at the output I get a ready-made SNA for debugging G)
Hello, moroz1999
mor> Somehow it seems to me that this is far from the most convenient method of working, who
mor> what can you recommend to facilitate/speed up this process?
incbin, include - look in the description for Zxasm? I just don't remember anymore...
Hello, rasmer
By the way, you can also recommend another ASM :)
Queries to the compiler are the simplest, the main thing is the convenience of the interface,
external ergonomics and simplicity.
Hello, All
I have long wanted to ask your advice on the following matter:
Everything that I write on ASMA (for myself), I do this way:
1. I run zxasm under Anril.
2. Compile
3. I go to the STS linked to it
4. I save the compiled file, restart, and run the previously made one
BASIC loader that loads graphics, tables, compiled code and
launches them.
Somehow it seems to me that this is far from the most convenient method of working, who will do what
Can you advise me to make this process easier/faster?
Hello Alex/AT
thanks everyone!
in general, for me the ideal of convenience would be:
1. I edit on PC in a custom editor
2. I compile in a cross-assembler into a snapshot file, which runs automatically
in emulsion.
Any ideas on how to achieve this?
Hello, moroz1999
So...
1) regarding the convenience of the interface and other things.
under win32 I wrote for ZX like this (I just use Linux and my own emulsion now):
emulsion - anril. company model - Pentagon 512
asm - alasm (not even the newest one). all incbins and includes are there. everything
I launch directly from asya without any bootloaders. ASM itself and STS lie at the top
memory, so my program does not affect them
debug - well, firstly, you need to write it in such a way that you don’t need to debug it (absolutely without
jokes, because it’s easier to write complex things correctly than to debug them). well, what if that's all
I still had to - STS.
if you need to debug some bootloaders, then Anrilov’s built-in
dolbager
Some people advise using cross assemblers, but that’s not convenient for me.
especially since there is still not a single cross-asma that is easy to write
code (precisely for ease of writing, and not for sophistication and other macros)
would reach alasma.
(in fact, even among the native writing asms, only nasm is possible
call it an assembler. )
Hello, moroz1999
mor> I have long wanted to ask your advice on the following matter:
mor> Everything that I write in ASMA (for myself), I do this way:
mor> 1. I launch zxasm under anril.
mor> 2. Compile
mor>
At this time, something goes wrong, for example, the power supply, and for 10 hours in a row written
fucking ruined. This is precisely the reason why you should not use
unreal speccy for such tasks.
> It seems to me that this is far from the most convenient method of working, who
> what can you recommend to facilitate/speed up this process?
EMUZ dosovy. Hitech-C and homemade scripts for loading tables
characters in emuz.
Hello Sinus
Sin> some advise using cross assemblers, but this is not convenient for me.
Sin> especially since there is still not a single cross-asma that is convenient
Sin> writing code (precisely for ease of writing, and not for sophistication
Sin> and other macros) would reach Alasma.
Sin>
An assembler is a program that gets *.obj from *.as. What is it
maybe it’s the convenience of the WRITINGS, I don’t know. I have it provided
editor (Vim).
> (in fact, even among native writing systems, only nasm
> can be called an assembler. )
And gas, or masm are therefore non-assemblers (that’s right, together).
Hello Alex/AT
Ale> A set of commands, macro functions, “short” records.
Ale>
Ale> I use SJAsm+, at the output I get a ready-made SNA for debugging G)
oh! I'll try this!
Hello Sinus
Sin> I don’t know what *.as is. maybe #?.asm ?
Sin>
Hitech has *.as. M$ has *.asm. GNU has *.s. So what's the difference...
> ease of writing is NOT an editor. this is the syntax to which I
> used to it.
>
Well, if you’re used to it... Then nothing will help. Although again the presence
A sane macro processor makes life a lot easier.
> gas has a very specific syntax, unusual for programmers
>
It is not intended for writing by hand at all... Use NASM.
> if the processor developer company comes up with the syntax, then they need to
> use. otherwise you get the feeling of a vinaigrette (as if they mixed
> 68k syntax with x86)
>
I agree.
> masm - yes, it's a non-assembler. at least you can’t use it.
There are no fools in Microsoft.
Hello Kurles
Kur> plus a nice feature - you can upload labels to disk to a file
Kur> the format of which is understood by Unreal, so that it would use them in the built-in debugger
Kur> showed.
Can you explain in more detail how to achieve this, or at least where to read it?
Hello fk0
fk0> An assembler is a program that gets *.obj from *.as.
fk0> I don’t know what convenience there might be in WRITING. I have it
fk0> is provided by the editor (Vim).
I don’t know what *.as is. maybe #?.asm ?
ease of writing is NOT an editor. This is the syntax I'm used to.
> And gas, or masm are therefore non-assemblers (that’s right, together).
gas has a very specific syntax, unusual for x86 and z80 programmers.
and specifically I don’t like this syntax.
if the processor developer company comes up with the syntax, then they need to
use. otherwise you get the feeling of a vinaigrette (as if they mixed 68k
syntax with x86)
masm - yes, it is a non-assembler. at least you can't use it.
Hello fk0
fk0> Well, if you're used to it... Then nothing will help. Although again availability
fk0> a sane macro processor makes life much easier.
that's my share ;)
I don't like macros. because if you heavily use macros and other bells and whistles, then
you start to forget what the code looks like.
> It is not intended for hand writing at all... Use NASM.
and I use it :cool;
>; There are no fools in Microsoft.
no. but masm has an extremely inconvenient syntax. (the operator is especially annoying
offset).
PS Why is it far from the Spectrum and from the topic? I'm quitting.
Hello Rubts0FF
Rub> :v2_clapp; Serious; statement :v2_clapp;
Well; I think it’s permissible for me, because I wrote a lot on ASMA... no, not a lot,
to hell ;)
And in the end I came to nasm (if you write it in petse).
PS all this is offtopic. I'm quitting.
Hello Sinus
Sin> masm - yes, this is a non-assembler. at least you can’t use it.
:v2_clapp; Serious; statement :v2_clapp:
Hello, moroz1999
mor> thanks everyone!
mor>
mor> in general, for me the ideal of convenience would be:
mor> 1. I edit on PC in a custom editor
mor>
Is someone prohibiting it?
> 2. I compile in a cross-assembler into a snapshot file, which is automatically
> runs in the emulator.
> any ideas on how to achieve this?
You need to do it automatically - write the appropriate script. "Snapshot" can do
sane linker (most of the underassemblers promoted here are his
do not have them at all) by placing the code in the necessary addresses, placing the header
"snapshot" in the appropriate place, stack, etc. and by
converting all this into *.bin - a ready-made “snapshot”.
Hello Alex/AT
Ale> A set of commands, macro functions, “short” records.
Ale>
The set of instructions is uniquely determined by the target processor.
Any sane MACRO ASSEMBLER can probably do “functions based on macros”.
Spectrum's, with the exception of ALASM, do not have this capability.
Yes, and ALASM is not particularly... A sane macro processor in my understanding, if anything,
this is m4.
I don’t know what “short notes” are.
Hello, Adramelek
Adr> You are simply not aware of all the possibilities of US. ;)
Has he already learned mmap() and msync() for *.trd instead of read()?
Hello fk0
fk0> At this time something goes wrong, for example the power supply, and writing for 10 hours in a row
fk0> is fucking ruined. This is precisely the reason why you should not
fk0> use unreal speccy for such tasks.
You are simply not aware of all the possibilities of the US. ;)
Hello Sinus
> The set of instructions is uniquely determined by the target processor.
>
> Any sane person can probably do “Macro functions”
> MACROASSEMBLER.
> Spectrum ones, with the exception of ALASM, do not have this capability.
> Yes, and ALASM is not very... A sane macro processor in my understanding,
> if anything,
> this is m4.
>
> I don’t know what “short entries” are.
Let me clarify - a set of directives.
Can macro processors do everything STRUCT? Or do we need to look for a preprocessor that would
could it? What about saving in SNA, for example? Or do we also need to look for a linker for ZX? A
ECHO during compilation, so that you don’t have to read the listing, but immediately see it
dimensions/points/etc.? What about MODULE and entries like .
Hello Sinus
Sin> Well, I think it’s permissible for me, because I wrote a lot in ASMA... no,
Sin> not much, a lot ;)
Sin> And in the end I came to nasm (if you write it in Petse).
Sin>
Sin> PS. all this is offtopic. I'm quitting.
This does not give you the right to unfoundedly declare that masm is a non-assembler.
To each his own, I like FASM, but I don’t like masm.
I'm quitting too.
Hello, nyuk
nyu> Can you explain in more detail how to achieve this, or at least where
nyu> read?
Easy. Actually, at the beginning of sjasm's source code we write
labelslist "path_to_unriluser.l"
after which we compile the program, launch unril, in its debugger press ctrl-l and
we rejoice :)
Hello Alex/AT
Ale>
> Which assemblers have this?
>
> So far SJAsm Plus only.
>
Not only in this ASAM... In my ASAM it was like this from the very beginning, also
in 2001...
Hello Alex/AT
Ale> MODULE and entries like .
This is the most powerful thing!
Which assemblers have this?
Hello, captain cobalt
> Which assemblers have this?
For now SJAsm Plus only.
*Hello, Alexey!*
Catch my ideas about the subject "Asma and ease of development", about which
your foot wrap to comrade cracked on April 20, 2006. All.
AK> Sjasm+. The syntax is almost alasm, it is possible to work with
AK> Spec file formats (.trd, hobeta), can be snapshot from code
AK> do, plus a nice feature - you can upload labels to disk in
AK> file, the format of which is understood by Unreal, so that it would be in the built-in
AK> showed in the debugger. Regarding the editor - I screwed it to MuitiEdit
AK> Sjasm's support is more than nice. It was possible by marks in the text
AK> jump, and position the cursor on errors during assembly.
AK> It turned out to be a full-fledged IDE.
May I ask what version of MultiEdit is and where can I download it?
/That’s all, Alexey, you can scroll further.../
Hello Kurles
Kur> Easy. Actually, at the beginning of sjasm's source code we write
Kur> labelslist "path_to_unriluser.l"
Kur> after which we compile the program, launch the unril, click in its debugger
Kur> ctrl-l and rejoice
Thank you. I really figured it out myself :) But thanks and respect anyway.
An extremely useful thing!
Hello Alex/AT
Ale> To clarify - a set of directives.
Ale>
Ale> Can macroprocessors do everything STRUCT? Or you need to look for a preprocessor
Ale> which one would it be
Ale>
This macro processor is called C. If you need namespaces, templates, etc.
perversions - C++. And to these two macroprocessors they also screw
more powerful ones, if necessary, like scheme.
> could? How about saving in SNA, for example?
>
How about saving in $Z? And in $X? And in $N? What about *.fjh? And in the text of the program
read into a wav file in Russian in iso-8859-5 encoding?
> Or should we also look for a linker for ZX?
>
For ZX - no need. Not even necessary for the Z80. Enough for the chosen one
compiler.
> And ECHO during compilation, so that you don’t have to read the listing, but see it right away
> dimensions/points/etc.?
>
I don't even know how. But the fact is that in a decent program there is nothing
fits in 24 lines of a standard terminal - I'm sure. Listing is needed in any
case and it is more convenient. Needed in the process: cat | tail |grep | awk | less...
> And MODULE and records like .
> This is called namespace and is supported by the C++ macro processor.
> AND INSERT (INCBIN)?
>
No big deal.
> And the “short entry” is something like PUSH HL,DE,BC,AF... Extremely useful
> feature :)
>
This is implemented by a recursive macro.
Hello, All
C++, C++. Comrade, you are delusional. We are talking about ASMS, not about C++.
Hello Alex/AT
By the way, is anyone interested in a convenient development environment for sjasm and asm80win (from
Mednonogova)?
Hello demon_zx
dem> By the way, is anyone interested in a convenient development environment for sjasm and
dem> asm80win (from Mednonogov)?
and what is its difference from the combination of text editor + asm + emulsion with debugger?
Hello, boo_boo
And if you need everything, why not use zEmu asm Kladova?
There are struct and define and interesting macros, and many, many things... And a debugger
editor at once...
Hello demon_zx
dem> By the way, is anyone interested in a convenient development environment for sjasm and
dem> asm80win (from Mednonogov)?
I'm interested..
Hello jim
Gentlemen - help the lamer with advice - I can’t load GENS4 under EmuZWin 2.5v,
I load it as described in the book "How to write a game in assembly language for ZX
Spectrum". Instead of loading once, it loads all the time, like
would be in a cycle.
Hello, Bally
give up this gens. take alasm. If you don’t understand something, ask.
Hello, moroz1999
mor> personally, my advice is sjasm + a normal notepad like scite. my
mor> productivity increased by 5 times compared to zasm.
I was thinking about switching from Alasma to here, but I don’t like that I have to every time
wait until the emulator loads to see how the program works. how are you
are you coping with this shortcoming?
Hello bugsy
My personal advice is sjasm + a normal notepad like scite. mine
productivity increased by 5 times compared to zasm.
Hello bugsy
IMHO cross-assemblers are good, but nevertheless all these are half measures. All this
"uploading to SNA" for debugging is unnecessary steps. We need a complete environment
development, the main tool of which is the assembler-INTERPRETER (as if wildly
it didn’t sound), that is, the ability to emulate the execution of TEXT right away
the program being debugged. Moreover, at the development stage it is not yet necessary
tied to the hardware, that is, the labels are names, not addresses (if
the encoder did not explicitly indicate the binding to physical addresses), and the amount of code/data
could be anyone. A running process can be stopped at any time,
change values in "registers", edit several lines or even
insert a new include and continue execution from the same (or any
another) place. And when everything more or less works without logical bugs,
you can build the "real" version.
The main difficulty here is storing addresses in registers, when all sorts of things are possible.
adding addresses with offsets (table sizes), etc. Yes, and to the marks
There may be additional alignment type requirements.
And by the way, to simplify digging in branded toys (for example), the same
capabilities should also be attached to debugging snapshots, that is, again you can
interrupt the execution of SNA and give a command like "execute from this address
such and such text and come back" - or vice versa, in the text being debuggedinsert "include such and such addresses of such and such SNA". That is, so that it is possible
execute also any mixture of text and already compiled code.
Hello Lethargeek
is it necessary? who will master this and write it? everyone who wants to do something,
They do what they have and are unlikely to change their usual tools. everything
the rest are just talking. or am I wrong?
Hello, moroz1999
you're right, explained it well!
I myself would not refuse to debug the program in ASMA itself - but for now it’s like this
the program will be written before it leaves the debugging stage - I'm afraid there won't be time
no...
Hello, moroz1999
mor> is it necessary? who will master this and write it? everyone who wants something
mor> do, they do with what they have, and are unlikely to change the usual
mor> tools.
Then what is the whole topic? Even if you don’t feel like “mastering” it...
mor> everyone else is just talking. or am I wrong?
Well, maybe someone is itching to write the very best development environment... :)
And life is not enough to do everything you want on your own.
Hello Lethargeek
Let> Then what is the whole topic for? Even if you don’t want to “master”...
Let>
I've already successfully gotten rid of zxasm, I couldn't be happier :)
Hello Lethargeek
Let> Well, maybe someone is itching to write the very best development environment...
Let> :)
Look how it’s done in Unreal, this tool can easily be developed, but
who will do this :)